Lethaface Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, Combatintman said: Fixed that for you mate … stuck in Kabul until not sure when (middle of April or end of May on current planning figures) Best of luck over there in such times! Even though it's pandemic time here, I'm thankful to be/live in NL. And indeed, wish everyone well during these times! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 On 3/22/2020 at 12:30 PM, Lille Fiskerby said: The Soviets didnt but the germans used stuka divebombers for precision bombing sometimes very close to the frontline, this would be great to have available in CMRT. The Germans had long given up daylight divebombing attacks with Ju 87s by 1944. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy56 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, LukeFF said: The Germans had long given up daylight divebombing attacks with Ju 87s by 1944. That's something a lot of people seem to not know about. The early-war divebombing mania sputtered out around 1943 in favor of the faster Fw 190 which became Germany's ubiquitous fighter-bomber. Edited April 2, 2020 by Frenchy56 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 On 3/20/2020 at 7:02 AM, Battlefront.com said: For Fire and Rubble? Not much. I'd have to check, but I don't think there was a lot of changes to equipment for those two areas between late Summer 1944 and Spring 1945. I think, 203 mm B-4 howitzer must be included in the on-map artillery list. These heavy guns were in High Command Artillery Reserve and actively used in urban combat, though direct fire wasn't provided in B-4 field manual. But their overkill power (it also named "Stalin's maul") turned out useful during breakthrough of heavy fortified lines (direst shot destruction of bunkers) and in battles in the cities, which had old strong stone buildings, which could resist even to 122/152 mm shells of IS/SU/ISU, for example assault of Ternopil in Western Ukarine in 1944. During assault of Berlin, one B-4 from high-power artillery brigade usually was attaching to one rifle battalion. Sometimes, guns used from the distanse of 200 m to the enemy and shot through the smoke screen. In urban combat also widely used high-power systems Br-2 (152 mm) and Br-5 (280 mm) B-4 on the Berlin street, towed by Voroshilovets heavy artillery tractor 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 On 2/29/2020 at 8:51 PM, MikeyD said: In the '80s the struggling Harley Davidson landed a contract to cast artillery shell bodies for the Pentagon, which allowed the company to remain alive for another 40 years. Interesting story, but I can find nothing on Google about it. Anyone knows anything about this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 7 hours ago, Haiduk said: I think, 203 mm B-4 howitzer must be included in the on-map artillery list In the current version of the game on map artillery is very slow and vulnerable. If 45-mm and 76-mm guns could be tweaked a little, so soldiers would move guns quicker and hide behind shields... In my opinion sloped 7mm gun shield protected no worse than APC armor. 203 guns would be easy target without tweaking guns protection, MGs would suppress them easily. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerKommissar Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 11 hours ago, Haiduk said: I think, 203 mm B-4 howitzer must be included in the on-map artillery list. Agreed, they're too iconic to miss. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 24 minutes ago, DerKommissar said: Agreed, they're too iconic to miss. In Soviet Union you not miss howitzer. Howitzer miss you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluecherForward Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, DerKommissar said: Agreed, they're too iconic to miss. I hope you realize that scenes like these were filmed in Berlin after the battle was over - just wanton destruction for propaganda effect. Then, of course, there was the raping of nearly every women (regardless of age) and girl in Berlin. Can't look at scenes like this without getting sick thinking about the rest. I had a German teacher who I met up with in Berlin - long ago. She had been raised in Berlin, but did not know about the Soviet monument at Treptower Park (below). I told her the story that the communists had circulated about the monument - that a Soviet soldier during the battle for the Reichstag had rescued a German girl wandering in the street and that this represented the Soviet Union leading "the new Germany" (communist East Germany) to the grand socialist future. My teacher, who was quite a reserved and dignified woman, did not hesitate in her response - and I will never forget it: "So when did he find the time to do that, in between raping her mother and her sister?" Edited April 3, 2020 by BluecherForward Question Mark 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIATpunk Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 hello Mother 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 LOL. Yep. Mord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 1 hour ago, BluecherForward said: Can't look at scenes like this without getting sick thinking about the rest. When you say "the rest" I presume you are talking about the systematic massacres of entire villages in Poland and all points East (not forgetting Oradour-sur-Glane in France of course) that the Germans came across? Or was it the rape of women before they were gassed? For the folks who lost their entire families in WW2 thanks to the civilizing effects of the German Army & SS, there may not be quite the same sense of indignation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluecherForward Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 16 minutes ago, Erwin said: When you say "the rest" I presume you are talking about the systematic massacres of entire villages in Poland and all points East (not forgetting Oradour-sur-Glane in France of course) that the Germans came across? Or was it the rape of women before they were gassed? For the folks who lost their entire families in WW2 thanks to the civilizing effects of the German Army & SS, there may not be quite the same sense of indignation. Thanks for the straw man morality lesson - of course I agree with everything you point out. I hate the Nazis and what they did - more than you could possibly know. The point of my original post was twofold - that films of the use of heavy artillery weapons in the streets of Berlin were pure propaganda produced after the battle was over and - secondly - that people need to be careful about glorifying the communist "liberators." I notice that you make no criticism of the comments above that make jokes about the systematic - and officially permitted - raping of an entire female population - including children. That tells me a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 The only thing worse than 1940s Nazis is a present day Nazi. One might argue the populace 80 years ago were naïf about just what sort of monsters they were supporting. You can't make that argument now. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 2 hours ago, BluecherForward said: Thanks for the straw man morality lesson - of course I agree with everything you point out. I hate the Nazis and what they did - more than you could possibly know. The point of my original post was twofold - that films of the use of heavy artillery weapons in the streets of Berlin were pure propaganda produced after the battle was over and - secondly - that people need to be careful about glorifying the communist "liberators." I notice that you make no criticism of the comments above that make jokes about the systematic - and officially permitted - raping of an entire female population - including children. That tells me a lot. Yeah whatever the Nazis did doesn't excuse atrocities on the other side. You either stand for morality or you don't. You can't stand for morality on just one side. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 1 hour ago, sburke said: Yeah whatever the Nazis did doesn't excuse atrocities on the other side. You either stand for morality or you don't. You can't stand for morality on just one side. Agreed, but here we are talking about the inclusion of a howitzer on map or off map. Not about the atrocitiesvcommitted by different parties. I don't think anyone here applauds what happened to german woman in 1945. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Erwin said: When you say "the rest" I presume you are talking about the systematic massacres of entire villages in Poland and all points East (not forgetting Oradour-sur-Glane in France of course) that the Germans came across? Or was it the rape of women before they were gassed? For the folks who lost their entire families in WW2 thanks to the civilizing effects of the German Army & SS, there may not be quite the same sense of indignation. But these facts are well documentated and widely condemned, aren't they? The mass rape of millions of women AND children (and not only in Germany, but also in 'liberated' Russia, Poland, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, the Baltic states and so on and so forth) and all the other attrocities of the Red Army are mostly ignored. It should be possible to condemn that without being accused of defending the attrocities of the Nazis. On the other hand, I guess it's just shame about making a pact with the devil in the name of freedom and justice to defeat another one. But I agree with Lethaface. Better let it rest. Especially on this forum. Edited April 3, 2020 by Aragorn2002 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, MikeyD said: The only thing worse than 1940s Nazis is a present day Nazi. One might argue the populace 80 years ago were naïf about just what sort of monsters they were supporting. You can't make that argument now. So who is a present day Nazi, Mikey? Please, tell us, instead of insinuating. Who is supporting who exactly? Steve made it quite clear that such insults, even in a covered version, are not allowed here. Edited April 3, 2020 by Aragorn2002 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 59 minutes ago, Lethaface said: Agreed, but here we are talking about the inclusion of a howitzer on map or off map. The pictures by @Haiduk do not seem to be staged. What is interesting is that in the first the howitzer is firing in almost a flat trajectory, maybe from an elevated position? In the second one, given the elevation of the gun, it looks definitely like indirect fire. I am with @DMS, I think that using such guns on the field was more of a spur of the moment tactical expedient (like the use of the self-propelled 155mm's in Aachen), than a standard operating procedure. Given the more static nature of the fighting in Berlin, I think it is reasonable to assume that Soviet battalions in the city had access to wired comms, enabling to call in support fire from the howitzers (and assuming as well that by "attached" it was meant "on call" for a battalion). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 Personally I don't like to see them the on-map artillery list. Too much overkill. Such guns easily bring down a whole building. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 They'd certainly be fun, but not really a 'must have'... On a lighter note, I manage to argue politics and history with friends and strangers all over the world on a number of different Social Media channels, and yet still not bring any of it into this forum. ...be like Freyberg... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Freyberg said: They'd certainly be fun, but not really a 'must have'... I meant such historical situation must be reflected in the module that Red Army encoutered with heavy fortified city defense (and not only in Berlin). Poznan, Kenigsberg, Praga and many other, so not only usual infantry support weapon couldn't deal with it, but even often 152 mm SP-guns. Though on other hand, buildings in CM has big disproportions in defensive capabilities. Their roofs easyly resist direct hits of 120-152 mm calibres, but infantry inside has a poor protection from small arms evan this building is looks strong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 I would like to see them on map. They would be useful for the assault on heavy fortified strongpoints (heavy buildings, bunkers, etc). The urban fighting in Berlin features, afaik, many battles for fortified buildings / streets. The B-4 seems authentic for this. With the 155mm SP long tom in CMFB, the Sturm Tiger and AVRE I think there is plenty of similar 'over powered' semi direct fire units in CMx2 game already. A scenario designer can always choose not to include them. Also, they probably won't be that useful apart from destruction of fortified positions because it would take a long time moving around. Like @BletchleyGeek , I think it is probable that direct fire usage of such things is more of a 'bottom up' thing than a 'top down' thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Haiduk said: I meant such historical situation must be reflected in the module that Red Army encoutered with heavy fortified city defense (and not only in Berlin). Poznan, Kenigsberg, Praga and many other, so not only usual infantry support weapon couldn't deal with it, but even often 152 mm SP-guns. Though on other hand, buildings in CM has big disproportions in defensive capabilities. Their roofs easyly resist direct hits of 120-152 mm calibres, but infantry inside has a poor protection from small arms evan this building is looks strong. Each to his own, but personally I don't enjoy urban fighting and I'm not looking forward it. For me CM excells in longer distance fighting in fields, woods and smaller villages. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 If any changes are made...I would much prefer to be able to asign off-map artillery to AI groups rather then having them on the map... Not the same thing...i know But that would be a nice change imo... To be able to use the 'area target trick' with all artillery assets... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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