The Year Ahead Bone Post

[Warts 'n' all]

4 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

Are you off your meds?

It would appear so.

[Haiduk]

4 hours ago, MikeyD said:

It seems 'big bang' stuff does only see limited use because it has the annoying habit of ending gameplay before the fun starts.

I have conducted some research about B-4 heavy guns in Berlin assault, so 102nd, 104th, 120th and 124th high-power artillery brigades were involved. In street fights for direct firing were used 38 B-4 guns of theese brigades. They turned out single weapon system, wich could defeat extremely strong stone buildings in the Berlin center. Germans also blocked streets with heavy barricades, built with massive blocks, so for its destruction also used direct fire of 152-203 mm barrels. If direct fire with heavy guns wasn't possible, 280 mm Br-5 mortires (34th sep.high-power artillery battalion, 6 barrels) and 305 mm howitzers mod.1915 (322nd sep.high-power artillery batalion, 6 barrels) were coming to game. Was enough 1-2 305 mm shells to collapse heavy fortified building. 

As told memories, using of heavy guns for direct fire also had a next reason - artillery spotters often could't see places of indirect fire shells impact because of high density of tall buildings and couldn't ajust fire. Indirect firing also couldn't supress enemy strongpoints on lower floors of buildings. Also bad communication between infantry and artillery, fast changing of tactical situation caused Soviet artillery and rockets often hit with indirect fire own troops, sufferng to them heavy losses and foling further advance.

Here some examples:

1. Assault group in 80 SMG gunners and riflemen, having in support 4 tanks, 6 76 mm guns, 4 45 mm guns, 4 120 mm mortars, 4 82 mm mortars, 2 152 mm howitzers had a task to advanse in Alexanrowplatz area from the crossroads of Fridenstrasse and Lansbergstasse. During advansing the group encountered that crossroads was blocked by heavy barricade and main buildings turned out in fortified positins. In the night B-4 has arrived and set up in front of barricade road block. On the morning the 20 minutes artillery barrage was conducted on nearest deep of enemy defense. Under artillery cover, part of the guns, appointed for direct fire, rapidly moved forward. B-4 with several shells wiped out the part of barricade. In the hole Soviet infantry rushed, supported by tanks, arttillery pieces moved with infantry by pairs  - all forces mutually covered each other.

2. Rifle unit couldn't take a heavy fortifierd building. All attempts to blow up the walls by sappers failed, because from the deep of the street this building covered by MG nests and snipers. B-4 has arrived. Infantry moved two regimental guns, which opened fast fire along the street in direction of MG nests. The street LOS was closed by smoke and dust and in that moment loaded B-4 moved to the street and hit the building.

3. During the fighting in Warshauerstrasse area, Soviet infantry was stopped by heavy resistanse - Germnas turned out dozens buildings in deadly fortress. Artillery of assault groups was useless. Even support fire of 122 mm barrels didn't give anything. Then four B-4 were moved there and they during 20 minutes from 200 m distanse complitely destroyed 11 buildings - infantry moved further.    

4. One Army, which operated in Berlin on the front of 3 km, used during several days for street fights and direct fire 14 203 mm howitzers, 34 152 mm guns and 12 152 mm howitzers, not counting barrels of less caliber.  

In most cases big guns were taking own positions after meticulous recon and as a rule under the cover of darkness, rarely in the daylight when it was extremely needed. Before opening fire, guns covered behind the buildings, covering by its walls. In some cases guns deployed in rubbles, behind ruined walls (its height adjusted if needed by crews and sappers). Range of using was 150-300 m, rarely 500-600 m. For the covering of guns infantry commanders detached special groups. Guns almost didn't fire in spotted targets, they often fired in middle part of buildings, causing severe destructions. As a rule about 7-10 203 mm shells was enough to destroy heavy building. More strong churches and stone buildings demanded 9-12 shells. 

Though were single fortifications in Berlin, which couldn't be crushed with no one of Soviet heavy artillery system - that are Flack-towers. Their walls has 2,8 m of thick, overlaps had 4 m, windows had steel plates 50-100 mm. For example flack tower in Tiergarten (Zoo-tower) was shooting out with 152 mm and 203 mm guns from 200 m but shells left only dents in the walls! 

 

  

 

       

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Haiduk

[BletchleyGeek]

Thanks very much for sharing that @Haiduk, very interesting reading.

[MikeyD]

Yeh, I've also read about the reduction of 'fortress Poznan' a couple months earlier that involved direct fire on fortified buildings by heavy artillery. The Russian technique for taking fortified buildings was systematized during the Poznan battles

Edited April 5, 2020 by MikeyD

[Bulletpoint]

On 4/3/2020 at 12:02 PM, Lethaface said:

I would like to see them on map. They would be useful for the assault on heavy fortified strongpoints (heavy buildings, bunkers, etc).

They are not needed at all. Because even concrete bunkers in this game get knocked out frontally by a couple of 75mm HE shells. No need for big guns.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[Bulletpoint]

5 hours ago, MikeyD said:

It seems 'big bang' stuff does only see limited use because it has the annoying habit of ending gameplay before the fun starts. On the eastern front every scenario could start with a virtual rain of artillery rockets. But moving forward over the charred corpses of your enemy is not exactly 'tactical warfighting'.

Many people seem to have this strange idea that if rocket artillery is used in a scenario, it's an automatic instant win. But that's not the case. I've played several scenarios that gave me rockets, and I still found the battles difficult.

A lot of battles on the Eastern Front should start with a shower of rockets.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[Warts 'n' all]

5 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

They are not needed at all. Because even concrete bunkers in this game get knocked out by a couple of 75mm HE shells. No need for big guns.

Without straying too far from the OP. I find the effectiveness of 75mm HE varies from title to title, and perhaps that is historically accurate. 

In the meantime I think that @Haiduk has provided more than enough evidence that the Russians used their "big guns" for more than just propaganda purposes.

[Erwin]

Rockets tend to land all over the place and I don't ever recall awe-inspiring results.  When I recall having enemy artillery landing over a relatively wide area on my own troops the effects were not that great.  The casualties are worse when artillery lands focused in a relatively small area.

[Sequoia]

CMSF doesn't have the M270 MLRS does it?

[MikeyD]

Is does have BM-21 artillery rockets on the Syrian side, which rarely gets used but its mighty impressive when they do . Interestingly, artillery rockets were purposefully left out of CMBS. I think their rationale was the weapon isn't meant for use along the line of contact but for use against follow-on forces and rear area artillery assets.

[Xorg_Xalargsky]

I thought they were left out from CMBS for essentially just being too powerful?

[MikeyD]

The 'reason' and the 'rationale' are two different things

[Freyberg]

6 hours ago, Haiduk said:

I have conducted some research about B-4 heavy guns in Berlin assault, so 102nd, 104th, 120th and 124th high-power artillery brigades were involved. In street fights for direct firing were used 38 B-4 guns of theese brigades...

Good argument - I'm persuaded...

[BluecherForward]

12 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

I see none of these jokes you mention.

Are you off your meds?

More to follow.

[BluecherForward]

On 4/2/2020 at 8:57 PM, BluecherForward said:

I had a German teacher who I met up with in Berlin - long ago. She had been raised in Berlin, but did not know about the Soviet monument at Treptower Park (below).  I told her the story that the communists had circulated about the monument - that a Soviet soldier during the battle for the Reichstag had rescued a German girl wandering in the street and that this represented the Soviet Union leading "the new Germany" (communist East Germany) to the grand socialist future. My teacher, who was quite a reserved and dignified woman, did not hesitate in her response - and I will never forget it:

"So when did he find the time to do that, in between raping her mother and her sister?"

 

On 4/2/2020 at 9:48 PM, PIATpunk said:

hello Mother

 

On 4/2/2020 at 9:49 PM, Mord said:

LOL. Yep.

 

Mord.

 

[Sequoia]

Hello mother or Hi Mom is an old meme on these threads meaning the thread will soon be locked.

[Mord]

@BluecherForward LOL. Jesus...Those weren't jokes about rape. It was @PIATPunk's way of saying the thread is about to be locked...as in "hi mom". And me agreeing. You know, because if there is one thing game forum owners want being discussed on their GAME forum, it's rape.

EDITED: Sequoia back doored me...without my consent.

Now, THAT was a joke.

Mord.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Mord

[Freyberg]

1 hour ago, Sequoia said:

Hello mother or Hi Mom is an old meme on these threads meaning the thread will soon be locked.

...even I got that reference, so it must have been pretty obvious...

Can we please not spoil this thread by descending into the same tired grudge match - can't you guys go and fight a duel somewhere...?

[Haiduk]

10 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

They are not needed at all. Because even concrete bunkers in this game get knocked out frontally by a couple of 75mm HE shells. No need for big guns.

BF always payed many attention to historical details. If this module is about Berlin operation, it should adhere to historical developments. Without big guns Red Army would have suffered much bigger losses and assuulted Berlin much more time. So I think, they have to include in the game new type of modular buildings, which should have strenght on a level higher, than cathedrals and on-map big guns (B-4 will be enough, I think) as an instrument  to destroy it.

PS. @BFCElvis It is posible to  pick up discussion about big guns in separate thread?  

[Haiduk]

9 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Interestingly, artillery rockets were purposefully left out of CMBS. I think their rationale was the weapon isn't meant for use along the line of contact but for use against follow-on forces and rear area artillery assets.

Real developments of war showed this was mistaken decision. Both sides widely used BM-21 (but ususally in the force of single launcher or platoon, less by battery ) and single-tube Grad-P for contact line hit. By the way this is the same brigade-level support system like 2S1 and 2S3. I hope this will adjusted in next module.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Haiduk

[BFCElvis]

5 hours ago, Haiduk said:

PS. @BFCElvis It is posible to  pick up discussion about big guns in separate thread?  

Of course. Go for it, bro! I hope to have something to add to such a thread at some point in the (hopefully) not too distant future.

[Haiduk]

29 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

Of course. Go for it, bro! I hope to have something to add to such a thread at some point in the (hopefully) not too distant future.

I meant it is possible you to transfer existing posts about subj in the new topic? 

[BFCElvis]

3 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

I meant it is possible you to transfer existing posts about subj in the new topic? 

Oh. I don't think the system is set up to do that. Plus, if it were possible, it would mean going through each post and deciding which posts should be moved and which shouldn't. if that's something you're interested in the best thing would be for you to open a second browser windows and in one open the post you want in the new one to copy and the other to paste in the new thread.

[Haiduk]

10 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

Oh. I don't think the system is set up to do that. Plus, if it were possible, it would mean going through each post and deciding which posts should be moved and which shouldn't. if that's something you're interested in the best thing would be for you to open a second browser windows and in one open the post you want in the new one to copy and the other to paste in the new thread.

Ah, ok, I will do it manually

[Armorgunner]

15 hours ago, Sequoia said:

Hello mother or Hi Mom is an old meme on these threads meaning the thread will soon be locked.

 

15 hours ago, Mord said:

@BluecherForward LOL. Jesus...Those weren't jokes about rape. It was @PIATPunk's way of saying the thread is about to be locked...as in "hi mom". And me agreeing. You know, because if there is one thing game forum owners want being discussed on their GAME forum, it's rape.

EDITED: Sequoia back doored me...without my consent.

Now, THAT was a joke.

Mord.

Hey, give the guy a break! It´s apparent to everybody,  that he doesn't know the drill. From his Point of view!! I can understand. That he thought you were joking, about raping mothers.

But he certainly knows now though  

Edited April 6, 2020 by Armorgunner