Fire and Rubble

[Battlefront.com]

2 hours ago, Lethaface said:

This! 

I also have my gripes of bugs/issues that aren't given the attention I feel they deserve (CMSF2 QB issues; lack of PKM ammo for SF&Airborne, lack of RPG ammo for all Syrian conventional forces). And yes some releases take longer than expectations. Which is why it is always good to hope for the best but expect the worst!

Yeah, that one sucked.  And it is the sort of bug we hate the most because it's significant and easily fixed (as opposed to a memory leak or OS incompatibility), yet requires the same pain of patching as anything else.

Our problem with patching is each one is very time consuming, and cumulatively patching across so many games really adds up.  That means we can't be doing anything else.  For example, if a CMSF2 bug were found last month, do we stop working on Fire & Rubble for 3 weeks to put out a patch?  The CMSF2 guys might say "yes", but I know this crowd would have a slightly different opinion

This has obligated us to patch only after we're sure we've found and addressed the most important outstanding stuff.  Which means weeks or months for a patch instead of days.  It could be that the ammo problem was fixed the first day it was reported, but had to wait for the opportunity to patch.  Trust me, we don't like it either. 

2 hours ago, Lethaface said:

Probably each of the posters here have their own 'gripe list'. We all would like to see the lists addressed and items fixed (sooner rather than later), featuring a public bugtracker with a clear process how to report new bugs. In theory everything is possible, but everything comes at a cost (time, resources, opportunities).

As the kids say these days, "Word!".  At least I think they ay that.  I don't know for sure because I turn my hearing aid off when they come to visit me in the old folks home.

2 hours ago, Lethaface said:

So in the end decisions are made and some things are fixed and some aren't, that however doesn't mean BFC doesn't care about the things they didn't fix. Nor does it implicate that BFC wouldn't want to improve certain processes. Would I like to see the bug process improved: yes! Do I think it is possible to improve: yes! Now, if BFC fails to improve it does that mean they don't care? no. It just means they didn't manage to improve it or didn't even try it because they deemed other stuff was more important.

Spot on and thanks.

2 hours ago, Lethaface said:

Unfortunately not many people accept or even understand the wisdom behind this view. If only for their own 'mental health'.

There's a reason so few software companies stay in business.  Balancing too many needs with too few resources in too little time for people who are too easily disappointed and often too quick to anger is a tough thing to do.  I just sat through a complaint session about municipal accounting software deficiencies, so I know it's not just us  

Steve

[Malaspina]

44 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

... And after release we've fixed thousands of bugs, ranging from typos in text ...

And some of the "typos" are quite endearing. I love the quirky wording on some Italian tombstones in CMFI. I always get a good laugh when I find one

If you need an "Italian tombstone betatester", I'm here!

The Italian audios, on the other hand, have always been spot-on in all of your games. Good job

Edited April 22, 2021 by Malaspina

[Bufo]

49 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Battlefront is 6 people in total.  Should we retask our only programmer to look into each of these bugs? 

Shadow Empires developers are 1 (one) guy in total. There is an official bug reporting topic on Slitherine's forum site, and he looks into each one of them. Also answers each one of them. Maybe he can give some advices to you.

49 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Whoa boy.  I doubt that is accurate.

I quote: "Leave the bug tracking to BFC.  Perhaps if you get invited to the Beta team some day then you can participate in all the bug tracking and reporting that you would ever want, but for now just go and play the game and enjoy yourself. " Link

I thought it is in common interest to fix the bugs. I am happy because my game gets better. You are happy because less bugs = better product.

As for the Beta testers: please note that I also waste my free time to report bugs.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Bufo

[Lethaface]

21 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Yeah, that one sucked.  And it is the sort of bug we hate the most because it's significant and easily fixed (as opposed to a memory leak or OS incompatibility), yet requires the same pain of patching as anything else.

Our problem with patching is each one is very time consuming, and cumulatively patching across so many games really adds up.  That means we can't be doing anything else.  For example, if a CMSF2 bug were found last month, do we stop working on Fire & Rubble for 3 weeks to put out a patch?  The CMSF2 guys might say "yes", but I know this crowd would have a slightly different opinion

This has obligated us to patch only after we're sure we've found and addressed the most important outstanding stuff.  Which means weeks or months for a patch instead of days.  It could be that the ammo problem was fixed the first day it was reported, but had to wait for the opportunity to patch.  Trust me, we don't like it either. 

CMSF2 PATCH FTW!!!  

(and for the record, the PKM ammo issue is still there for special Forces & Airborne, RPG ammo in QB is like 1 per squad for all branches ).

However I do trust what you say, I have no reason to assume you guys enjoy having us wait for patches unnecessarily long. Sometimes things are just 'it is what it is'. If no gross misconduct or negligence is in play, I prefer constructive criticism / suggestions opposed to plain complaining. Because if nothing else 'tone of voice' is an important part of communication, at least in my world.

Perhaps it helps I can understand the challenge/time sink involved maintaining several game families with separate executables / installs, even though they share a lot of the codebase, with a small team.

Of course I also hope you guys somehow find ways to improve the speed of patching and testing processes. Perhaps for CMx3 with a single 'family' and all content in module form?

Anyway even with JIRA, Bitbucket and CI/CD (etc) in place still someone needs to 'accept' new/changed functionality and design/write the tests. And of course that's more complicated to do in an automated pipeline compared to manual tests. 
Even though i'm a proponent of these things, it's quite the effort and chances are overall progress will actually delay for a good while before it can improve, assuming that hiring the correctly skilled staff etc all goes according to plan. 
This stuff is not easy for large corporations, perhaps even harder given the employee turnover and more compartmentalized roles and responsibilities. 

So whether it's a good idea to even go on such an adventure for an existing product/codebase and a small team?? Maybe yes maybe no I'd say, with some healthy experience on the subject

 

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Bufo said:

As for the Beta testers: please note that I also waste my free time to report bugs.

Yep, I also wasted much too much time on reporting bugs. And not because I "fancied myself a tester", but simply because I wanted to help improve the game. I've dialled down the bug reporting a lot though, and I'm sure BFC has appreciated the peace and quiet.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

1 hour ago, Bufo said:

Shadow Empires developers are 1 (one) guy in total. There is an official bug reporting topic on Slitherine's forum site, and he looks into each one of them. Also answers each one of them. Maybe he can give some advices to you.

 

It's 1 guy and he's created a good game, but that's all he does. The 6 people at BFC do everything. The VR Designs guy has Slitherine doing all the heavy lifting, marketing, and business side activities, so it really isn't a fair comparison at all.

[JM Stuff]

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

...

DEAR  S T E V E  FROM BATTLEFRONT

THAT ARE  IN  OUR HEARD since 20 years...

CAN YOU please ,,, because you are around us answer to a simple question, to a simple customer that I am.

Or do I have to asking you with angry propos like some peoples in the forum to have your attention...

If not than my Simple Question ...

Can we have No can I have some knowledges about the famous CM3 that I am waiting, to know what it's look like, and if WE can have some infos about it...please !

Thank you in advance  to take the time to answer.

JM

 

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, Bufo said:

Shadow Empires developers are 1 (one) guy in total. There is an official bug reporting topic on Slitherine's forum site, and he looks into each one of them. Also answers each one of them. Maybe he can give some advices to you.

Every hour he spends looking at the bug reporting is an hour he isn't making Shadow Empires.  Maybe we can give him some advice?

1 hour ago, Bufo said:

I quote: "Leave the bug tracking to BFC.  Perhaps if you get invited to the Beta team some day then you can participate in all the bug tracking and reporting that you would ever want, but for now just go and play the game and enjoy yourself. " Link

I thought it is in common interest to fix the bugs. I am happy because my game gets better. You are happy because less bugs = better product.

As for the Beta testers: please note that I also waste my free time to report bugs.

As I figured, it is you misinterpreting what was written.  What he is saying is correct.  Gamers should NOT be obsessed with bug reporting.  That is NOT their job.  And why would any gamer want it to be?  

This is not the same as customers reporting bugs.  That happens every single day here and it is absolutely critically important.  We absolutely need and want it. 

Don't confuse pushback against a specific way of dealing with bug reporting vs. pushback against bug reporting itself.

Again, no system is perfect.  What works for different developers making different games is their business.  What works for our game in our circumstances is our business.  We are never shy about changing something that doesn't work into something else.  But given all the variables in play, our system for the last 20+ years does work and works pretty well.  The proof is the games we make and that proof is very strong indeed.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Just now, JM Stuff said:

Can we have No can I have some knowledges about the famous CM3 that I am waiting, to know what it's look like, and if WE can have some infos about it...please !

When the time is right, absolutely!  But like anything we're do, we only start talking about something when it is ready to talk about.  We aren't quite there yet.

Steve

[JM Stuff]

2 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

When the time is right, absolutely!  But like anything we're do, we only start talking about something when it is ready to talk about.  We aren't quite there yet.

Steve

Thank you you make me so happy to answer to my Simple Question, yes I will waiting for the moment... and come back again with another one.

JM

[Dan Dare]

7 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

This is not the same as customers reporting bugs.  That happens every single day here and it is absolutely critically important.  We absolutely need and want it. 

thank you a lot for the clarification...it had returned my normal state of mind to me (a bit crazy...but not that much as i was till your post)

frankly...imho...just a subforum for posting those "findings" (ntd), with the set of rules you do prefer, i guess will be of your help for collecting the info so when the time arrives for the update they could not be gaily missed...unless you prefer them to be "ticketed" to the tech support...if not we will finally educate ouselves so when you announce an upgrade or a module we drop them there just in case...with one  "@BFCElvis" or "@battlefront.com"...just for the sake of our tranquility 

just posting them in the open forum is calling for them to be lost somehow in the middle of the caothic come and go of our talks...cause here are a lot of ammazing things, amazing and quite difficult to follow...and what amazed me most is that if sb is politely complaing then from out of nowhere come sb to ratn the complainer...I call them "no complaining police" and some other names that I better not to mention here in case there are some underage around

I dare to say all that cause there are some others "findings"(some minor things and some not so minor, but that I learn to live with) that I hope will be addresed with the module.. but even if not that could be fine, but that I will not dare mention till F&R is released or I will be shoothing my own feet...cause you know...your game is great...well...sure it could be perfect...but great is more than ok.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Dan Dare

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

3 hours ago, Bufo said:

No I don't think so. I think nobody saw it. There isn't an official "something" where you can report bugs.

Just look at for example Paradox's bug reports pages. There is a form to fill, then sometime somebody will check it and they will answer. If needed they ask for more info. Then sometime they will post something like acknowledged, or that was an intended effect an not a bug.

Here nobody asked anything. Its not the problem of finding bugs, its the problem of caring about bugs found by the public, thats all.

 

Oh and, by the way, there was even a beta tester posting here that we shouldn't report bugs. That says it all. Like we are imbeciles.

And that’s fine if you have the manpower to triage the bugs like the big companies do, BFC is not a big company and I doubt they have the manpower. But I am assuming a lot here.  

I don’t think it’s fair to say they don’t care, as Steve says the amount of stuff that gets reported is vast and I would imagine they simply don’t have the time to do the necessary triage on what is and isn’t a bug and that’s a job I wish on nobody. Well maybe one person, but he seemed to enjoy it. Strange man.

I didn’t see the post about not reporting bugs so I can’t comment without context and a more formal big reporting system would be welcome but if they put such a thing in place and then still did not have time to address every report then it won’t make people happier anyway.

MMM

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Which is basically what’s been said above, should read the other posts before replying

 

MMM

[A Canadian Cat]

5 hours ago, slysniper said:

ok, the good news is , when you get the game here shortly. You will be happy with how much content you will be getting.

I am sure of it.

Oh man that is what the third hilarious post from you in a day. I don't usually think of you as the funny guy (usually think of @sburke or @c3k did one of them hack your account :-) - thanks for the laughs.

[Aragorn2002]

10 minutes ago, IanL said:

Oh man that is what the third hilarious post from you in a day. I don't usually think of you as the funny guy (usually think of @sburke or @c3k did one of them hack your account :-) - thanks for the laughs.

What exactly is funny about that? Really don't get it.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[A Canadian Cat]

9 hours ago, 37mm said:

Create some more forum moderators, I suspect there's not enough for a forum of this size anyway, and as part of their remit they can manage a stickied reporting thread (keeping it clear of useless discussion or fake bug reports) for each game family.

That means you guys & the Beta testers will only ever have to visit that one thread to find issues that have been raised & we will at least know that an issue has been seen.

But who would those people be?

When I started playing CM and reading and posting here I ready every single word written by everyone (well other than a handful of people who proved to be either rude or astronomically ridiculous but thankfully that is still a small number). It's a lot, I don't do that any more. One thing I noticed is that frequently the reports of bugs are not at all bugs.

There is a category of things that are reported because people are unhappy they had their asses handed to them or their favourite kit is not uber enough. Reading those bug reports are not very productive. Frequently explaining things to people lands on closed ears. I used to (and occasionally still do) because it's good for other people to hear the explanations even if the OP refuses to understand. These seem like bug reports but they are not at all. So, they would have to be weeded out. Who's going to want to deal with that? I just don't read posts like this after a certain point but if I were one of those moderators I would have to reject the bug report and answer the complaints under your plan. Pass.

There is a category of things that are reported that just aren't wrong they are inside the possible range of outcomes. There are so many posts of the form "I did x and bad thing Q happened that's a bug". It is way way more likely it is just that Q happened to them but usually good thing W happens. Who's going to run the tests to verify that Q is happening to much? Who's going to make a call of how much Q and how much W we want in the game? Frankly I've done lots of this and so have many other testers its what we do. The problem comes with when do we spark up a study like that? If one of us did that for everyone of these individual reports we'd do nothing else and waste a ton of time. But your moderators would have to do something like that or have the OP do it or get a tester to do it otherwise its not a real bug and should not be on your list. I'll take on some of those but mostly I'll pass.

There is a category of complaints that are just not going to be solved because there is a game limitation. Some of those are widely known others not. I guess a list of those would be helpful. If people read it. The CM2 FAQ Thread

There is a category of complaints that are arguable and we all do argue (I'm thinking of the panzer shreck firing from inside buildings arguments). The game designer makes a call and that's what gets implemented. If its arguably the right call then it's not a bug its an argument. Should that go on the list? BFC says not OP says yes. Maybe OP and other actually do find documentation that the call is wrong then it gets on the fix list. Most calls don't get changed. Each of those calls have at least on OP who doesn't think it is right. Someone has has to deal with all those complaints. Again pass.

Then there are the myriad of complaints that just don't pan out. I cannot count the number of times I've tried to reproduce a reported problem but been unable to. Often they just aren't bugs. Sometimes the description is just incomplete. Trying to tease out what the missing bits of info are takes time. At the end of that often its still not a bug. I'll take on some of those too but mostly I'll pass.

At the moment I have 9 emails I have sent to my self of issues reported here or elsewhere. Every now and then I'll pick one and try to work it to a report-able bug. I'll keep doing that, that's what I signed up for. I'm sure most testers do something similar. That's just one part of the imperfect system that outlined.

[A Canadian Cat]

5 hours ago, Lethaface said:

You remind me of an observation I made almost 2 decades ago. When in my early 20's I often had to travel by bus. I noticed many people checking the bus schedule at the bus stop and then looking at their watch and becoming irritated/angry that the bus has been delayed. While I never looked at the schedule, because me looking at the schedule wouldn't have any influence with regards to the bus arriving sooner or later.

That wasn't a 'one time' observation, I'd often see the same people around the same time getting worked up about the same thing. 

Yep, nice job noticing that so early in your life. It took me longer to see that was me and change my mind set. Don't get me wrong I can still get impatient but I try to avoid that mind trap as much as I can.

Learning to manage complaining is an important life lesson (so is learning how to manage complainers :-). After all no complaints means no progress. We owe each other some consideration of if our complaint is at all productive and if it is great but then we also have to ask ourselves after repeating the same complaint for too long is it really productive any more? Hint it's not

[37mm]

8 minutes ago, IanL said:

But who would those people be?

They wouldn't (or at least wouldn't have to be) beta testers... that's (as you highlight) a different skill set.

The vast majority of forums on the web have volunteer forum moderators.

Forum mods manage the forum (including the report threads), Beta testers test the games, the Super Six make the games.

This is not an outlandish concept.

[Thewood1]

3 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Every hour he spends looking at the bug reporting is an hour he isn't making Shadow Empires.  Maybe we can give him some advice?

But isn't that part of the game?  Should developers not fix bug?  I dread seeing a bug in any CM game mainly because I know its months/years away from being fixed.  There are software and software game companies that are the same size as BFC with just as complex delivery systems that have a steady stream of patches and fixes going on.

[AttorneyAtWar]

The frequency of patches is way higher at other game companies (at least one a week at a lot of them) with similar amounts of developers. In comparison you can expect 1 patch a year with BFC games, I'm not sure I understand how that's something to be proud of.

Now Combat Mission doesn't have anything game breaking really (which is absolutely something to be proud of) so I don't expect a patch a week but its always a surprise when something small takes a year or more for a CM game.

[ASL Veteran]

9 minutes ago, AttorneyAtWar said:

The frequency of patches is way higher at other game companies (at least one a week at a lot of them) with similar amounts of developers. In comparison you can expect 1 patch a year with BFC games, I'm not sure I understand how that's something to be proud of.

Now Combat Mission doesn't have anything game breaking really (which is absolutely something to be proud of) so I don't expect a patch a week but its always a surprise when something small takes a year or more for a CM game.

Well you can't really compare patching on Steam to what BFC is currently doing because the vehicle for getting the patch to the gamer is different.  Comparing apples to oranges.  Maybe when all of BFC's games are on Steam then perhaps patches will come out more frequently (if necessary of course)

[Lethaface]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

Yep, nice job noticing that so early in your life. It took me longer to see that was me and change my mind set. Don't get me wrong I can still get impatient but I try to avoid that mind trap as much as I can.

Learning to manage complaining is an important life lesson (so is learning how to manage complainers :-). After all no complaints means no progress. We owe each other some consideration of if our complaint is at all productive and if it is great but then we also have to ask ourselves after repeating the same complaint for too long is it really productive any more? Hint it's not

Guess I have other issues that I only learned later, or still have to discover 

And indeed it is good that there are people who (dare to) 'complain', or just dare say that they think things are wrong, should be different and or could be improved (and explain why / how). 
In my perspective that's not really complaining but just being critical in a positive fashion. Nobody has to like stuff, but then again nobody needs to create fuss unnecessary. 

Some people apparently believe their criticism is taken more seriously if they combine/spice it up with a touch of drama.
 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Lethaface

[Lethaface]

24 minutes ago, AttorneyAtWar said:

The frequency of patches is way higher at other game companies (at least one a week at a lot of them) with similar amounts of developers. In comparison you can expect 1 patch a year with BFC games, I'm not sure I understand how that's something to be proud of.

Now Combat Mission doesn't have anything game breaking really (which is absolutely something to be proud of) so I don't expect a patch a week but its always a surprise when something small takes a year or more for a CM game.

To be fair I didn't read Steve telling us being proud of a patch a year. Actually he posted this a few posts back:

"Our problem with patching is each one is very time consuming, and cumulatively patching across so many games really adds up.  That means we can't be doing anything else.  For example, if a CMSF2 bug were found last month, do we stop working on Fire & Rubble for 3 weeks to put out a patch?"

 

[AttorneyAtWar]

Proud was probably the wrong term but it was more directed at other commenters not Steve.

[c3k]

58 minutes ago, AttorneyAtWar said:

The frequency of patches is way higher at other game companies (at least one a week at a lot of them) with similar amounts of developers. In comparison you can expect 1 patch a year with BFC games, I'm not sure I understand how that's something to be proud of.

Now Combat Mission doesn't have anything game breaking really (which is absolutely something to be proud of) so I don't expect a patch a week but its always a surprise when something small takes a year or more for a CM game.

I know what you mean.

But, here's some inside ball: you've heard all the "gotta test to make sure a 'fix' doesn't break something else", right?

My contribution to CW is very small compared to the incredible work that others have done. But, here's a sample of what I put into this. There was a question about spotting. (This is the type of observed behavior followed by rigorous testing that discovered the infamous Tiger gunner sitting sideways issue.) In order to dig into the particular issue in CW, I created some tests. In the course of these, I entered, individually and by hand, 13,500 data points. Pause, look, type, tab: repeat thirteen thousand and five hundred times.

Let me repeat that: 13,500 individually entered data points. Painful? Oh, yes.

The result? The game rocks.

Now, if there were patches released each week, they would NOT get this type of detailed testing.

(There's a game, not naming it, but has to do with Commanding air and naval stuff, in a Modern setting, at an Operational scale, that releases patches (and beta patches) pretty frequently. You can pretty much bet that each one breaks something. A sonar fidelity increase means ballistic missiles don't get intercepted.)

I'm a gamer, like you. We all would like a perfect game. Or, a better game sooner.

This is how it is, and it works pretty darn well...

Ken