Battlefront.com Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 7 hours ago, 37mm said: To be fair, although I agree the schizophrenia is a little annoying, we have a situation where a bug first reported four years ago appears to have been not important enough to have been fixed... but was important enough to (slightly) delay a major module release. Oooooh, that's not even remotely correct. To be fair, that is Let's say it took us 5 hours to fix a single bug. If we did the fix on the first day of starting a new product or the last day of testing... it's exactly the same in terms of when the product ships because time isn't magically less impactful at the beginning vs. the end. If someone wants to challenge Einstein they are free to do so, but it's certainly off topic here. The only way to characterize a particular fix as a "delay" for release is if it affects when the product is available to you guys. That's rarely the case. Usually the only glitches that cause a true delay are when we get to Release Candidate stage. When we're at that point we have something that could theoretically be released any second. If someone finds a ReadMe is missing, a certain installer option isn't working as intended, something is corrupt, etc. THEN any fixes will "delay" the release. But even that is incorrect. Why? Because we release a product when the product is ready. The only way it can be "delayed" is if it's ready to release and we hold it back for some reason. Oh... like Elvis was supposed to flip the switch for downloads but got distracted by binge watching The Nanny or What's Happening. Since none of this happened then it's incorrect to say that F&R has been delayed. It is just taking as long as it needs to take. Quote No matter how you cut it, there are problems with how bug reporting (and acknowledgement of said reporting) is taking place... a problem which then exacerbates other communication issues between BFC & some of its customers. Sure, that's fair. No process is perfect and all systems have their own downsides. There's reasons why software companies spend billions of Dollars on tools to communicate with each other, partners, and customers. And anybody that works with things like Slack, Jira, etc. will tell you that they are also imperfect and, in some cases, make things worse. Our system is certainly imperfect, but it works pretty well. We have more than a dozen products out there and thousands of active posters on these Forums. 5 hours ago, Gkenny said: And there are many other bugs posted regularly, like the one mentioned with the uniforms that never go anywhere. And there's also thousands of "bugs" that are posted here, bitched about, and in fact aren't. User error, misunderstanding, not knowing their history, not being able to reproduce, etc. Unfortunately, trying to find the real amongst all the false is tough. Giving you guys access to bug reporting tool would only make it worse. Much worse. That's because everybody fancies themselves a tester and thinks each report they make is important. Putting up a list of "known issues" is a more viable idea, but at a cost of our time. Maintaining a meaningful list (i.e. accurate and up to date) is a challenge. Trying to do one that covers more than a dozen or so significant issues would be a huge time suck. Plus, you guys don't have any way to judge prioritization, technical limitations, gameplay impacts, etc. Posting a list of things containing issues we might never address for one reason or another doesn't seem like a good thing to do. Sorry, no interest in going down this route either. We live in an imperfect world and that means there's always some imperfection to point to. We always try to do better, but thinking there's a way for us to address everything you guys find is as unrealistic as thinking it's possible for us to release games without any bugs to start with. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Vacilllator said: I agree Mark certainly has a sense of humour (spelling ) but I think some other fine folk here also do - yourself included dare I say? And you too! And many others fortunately. HumoUr has a very important role to play in life, to my experience. It also helps to take ourselves not too seriously, which in my case can be a problem from time to time as we all know. P.s. damn the bugs, release the module! Edited April 22, 2021 by Aragorn2002 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdeath Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 At least Combat Mission Starship Troopers can be released with plenty of bugs so we all can do our part! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM Stuff Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 Steve any shadow any taste about CM3 ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37mm Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 7 hours ago, Battlefront.com said: Our system is certainly imperfect, but it works pretty well. We have more than a dozen products out there and thousands of active posters on these Forums. We'll agree to disagree over whether "slight delay" was an appropriate term... however I think this highlights the most likely avenue for improvement. Create some more forum moderators, I suspect there's not enough for a forum of this size anyway, and as part of their remit they can manage a stickied reporting thread (keeping it clear of useless discussion or fake bug reports) for each game family. That means you guys & the Beta testers will only ever have to visit that one thread to find issues that have been raised & we will at least know that an issue has been seen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 34 minutes ago, 37mm said: We'll agree to disagree over whether "slight delay" was an appropriate term... however I think this highlights the most likely avenue for improvement. Create some more forum moderators, I suspect there's not enough for a forum of this size anyway, and as part of their remit they can manage a stickied reporting thread (keeping it clear of useless discussion or fake bug reports) for each game family. That means you guys & the Beta testers will only ever have to visit that one thread to find issues that have been raised & we will at least know that an issue has been seen. Having a dedicated bug reports forum could be useful too. In that way I think it is possible for moderators/admins to remove posting privileges of users that decide to be deliberately unhelpful or do not abide by some straightforward rules on how to structure reports and minimum amount of data to provide. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 23 minutes ago, BletchleyGeek said: Having a dedicated bug reports forum could be useful too. In that way I think it is possible for moderators/admins to remove posting privileges of users that decide to be deliberately unhelpful or do not abide by some straightforward rules on how to structure reports and minimum amount of data to provide. There is actually a Tech Support Forum already, so maybe with some rebranding to make it more evident... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said: What disturbs me most is not the fact that bugs are found, but that they are found in this final stage. What disturbs me is that bug was found a long time ago, they just don't care about public bug reporting (BF doesn't even have any kind of a system for reporting bugs). Edited April 22, 2021 by Bufo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty's Mighty Moustache Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, Bufo said: What disturbs me is that bug was found a long time ago, they just don't care about public bug reporting (BF doesn't even have any kind of a system for reporting bugs). I don't think that's fair. I work in software and sometimes bugs are incredibly hard to recreate and from what Steve posted a while ago it took he and Charles 5 hours to find the cause, meaning it was an absolute pig to find because of the rarity of it occurring. They may well have tried to replicate it when it was first reported, couldn't due to lack of info ("x doesn't work" with no supporting detailed information is unfortunately the norm), and other more important things pushed it way down the list. The difference here it appears is they saw it themselves and then managed to track it down. Software is complicated, I have 20+ years experience and I still ship stuff with bugs because, well, deadlines. I appreciate that they take their time and get it right, it's a rare thing in this industry. MMM 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHEqTRO Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said: I don't think that's fair. I work in software and sometimes bugs are incredibly hard to recreate and from what Steve posted a while ago it took he and Charles 5 hours to find the cause, meaning it was an absolute pig to find because of the rarity of it occurring. They may well have tried to replicate it when it was first reported, couldn't due to lack of info ("x doesn't work" with no supporting detailed information is unfortunately the norm), and other more important things pushed it way down the list. The difference here it appears is they saw it themselves and then managed to track it down. Software is complicated, I have 20+ years experience and I still ship stuff with bugs because, well, deadlines. I appreciate that they take their time and get it right, it's a rare thing in this industry. MMM I think the problem here is not so much if they did or not fix that particular bug and how much time they did take to do so, as that despite that this bug had been found and reported here on the forums a long time ago, the developers just got news of it like two days ago. Hence why a better system of bug reporting might be in order. Edited April 22, 2021 by CHEqTRO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) When I'm in a negative mood (which fortunately I'm not today ) I sometimes wonder what they have been doing with this module in the past two or three years. Especially the well known SVT40 magazine bug, which wasn't dealt with until a week or so ago and only after being spotted by an attentive forum member on a new screenshot, raised my eyebrows. But anyway, are we close, very close, very very close or very, very, very close? Edited April 22, 2021 by Aragorn2002 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said: I don't think that's fair. I work in software and sometimes bugs are incredibly hard to recreate and from what Steve posted a while ago it took he and Charles 5 hours to find the cause, meaning it was an absolute pig to find because of the rarity of it occurring. They may well have tried to replicate it when it was first reported, couldn't due to lack of info ("x doesn't work" with no supporting detailed information is unfortunately the norm), and other more important things pushed it way down the list. The difference here it appears is they saw it themselves and then managed to track it down. Software is complicated, I have 20+ years experience and I still ship stuff with bugs because, well, deadlines. I appreciate that they take their time and get it right, it's a rare thing in this industry. MMM This! I also have my gripes of bugs/issues that aren't given the attention I feel they deserve (CMSF2 QB issues; lack of PKM ammo for SF&Airborne, lack of RPG ammo for all Syrian conventional forces). And yes some releases take longer than expectations. Which is why it is always good to hope for the best but expect the worst! Probably each of the posters here have their own 'gripe list'. We all would like to see the lists addressed and items fixed (sooner rather than later), featuring a public bugtracker with a clear process how to report new bugs. In theory everything is possible, but everything comes at a cost (time, resources, opportunities). So in the end decisions are made and some things are fixed and some aren't, that however doesn't mean BFC doesn't care about the things they didn't fix. Nor does it implicate that BFC wouldn't want to improve certain processes. Would I like to see the bug process improved: yes! Do I think it is possible to improve: yes! Now, if BFC fails to improve it does that mean they don't care? no. It just means they didn't manage to improve it or didn't even try it because they deemed other stuff was more important. In the end it's just choices/decisions that need to be made, BFC can't please everyone. C'est la vie. 10 hours ago, Battlefront.com said: Since none of this happened then it's incorrect to say that F&R has been delayed. It is just taking as long as it needs to take. Unfortunately not many people accept or even understand the wisdom behind this view. If only for their own 'mental health'. Although probably some of the 'complaints' about delays in F&R have become part of a regular routine people need for their coping mechanisms ;-). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 7 minutes ago, Lethaface said: 8 minutes ago, Lethaface said: Unfortunately not many people accept or even understand the wisdom behind this view. If only for their own 'mental health'. Although probably some of the 'complaints' about delays in F&R have become part of a regular routine people need for their coping mechanisms ;-). Lethaface, please spare me your Mindfulness exercises. The simple truth is that the delay has been endless because of low priority and more profitable other business. There's no 'wisdom' in the conclusion that 'it's taking as long as it needs to take'. That just complete and utter nonsense. We haven't been waiting all this time because the module needed it to become perfect, but because all these years it was low on the priority list. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said: Lethaface, please spare me your Mindfulness exercises. The simple truth is that the delay has been endless because of low priority and more profitable other business. There's no 'wisdom' in the conclusion that 'it's taking as long as it needs to take'. That just complete and utter nonsense. We haven't been waiting all this time because the module needed it to become perfect, but because all these years it was low on the priority list. Aragorn2002 You are correct, is that what you want to hear. Does it make any difference if you are. When will you accept the fact that the situation is what it is and all your complaining over these years have made not one bit of difference other than to irritate other people. I do know one thing, Be glad I am not Steve, because if it was my product and I had to deal with someone like you. I would find a way not to sell you my product. I would Call it a "Band of Purchase" Oh this is all "Humor" but I am sure it does not sound like it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, slysniper said: Aragorn2002 You are correct, is that what you want to hear. Does it make any difference if you are. When will you accept the fact that the situation is what it is and all your complaining over these years have made not one bit of difference other than to irritate other people. I do know one thing, Be glad I am not Steve, because if it was my product and I had to deal with someone like you. I would find a way not to sell you my product. I would Call it a "Band of Purchase" Oh this is all "Humor" but I am sure it does not sound like it. You're right, it doesn't. And you might want to correct your own post. Edited April 22, 2021 by Aragorn2002 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said: Lethaface, please spare me your Mindfulness exercises. The simple truth is that the delay has been endless because of low priority and more profitable other business. There's no 'wisdom' in the conclusion that 'it's taking as long as it needs to take'. That just complete and utter nonsense. We haven't been waiting all this time because the module needed it to become perfect, but because all these years it was low on the priority list. It's no mindfulness exercise, please spare me the masquerading of your impatience as delays. The delay in you grasping to understand that the world doesn't turn and tick to your clock is endless. Anyway, obviously you would have set priorities different; I get it. The only 'simple truth' in this is that you (nor me) don't decide on the priorities with regards to BFC. The difference between us is that you are waiting and complaining for years, while I don't 'wait' for things that are outside of my control (unless it would be critical for my wellbeing; releases of computer games are typically not critical to my wellbeing). One day it will release (or not), if all is well I will take note of the release and download the game. You remind me of an observation I made almost 2 decades ago. When in my early 20's I often had to travel by bus. I noticed many people checking the bus schedule at the bus stop and then looking at their watch and becoming irritated/angry that the bus has been delayed. While I never looked at the schedule, because me looking at the schedule wouldn't have any influence with regards to the bus arriving sooner or later. That wasn't a 'one time' observation, I'd often see the same people around the same time getting worked up about the same thing. Conceptually you are doing the same thing. Everyday it hasn't come out you are getting angry at more delays, even though they've said yesterday that it won't come out today Now please excuse me I have something else to do, which is under my control (work). Edited April 22, 2021 by Lethaface 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 ok, the good news is , when you get the game here shortly. You will be happy with how much content you will be getting. I am sure of it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 4 minutes ago, slysniper said: ok, the good news is , when you get the game here shortly. You will be happy with how much content you will be getting. I am sure of it. I have no doubt about that. And then we can all move on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 Just now, Aragorn2002 said: I have no doubt about that. And then we can all move on. You can already 'move on' now, allowing yourself to be happily surprised when the game releases. Or you could stay getting worked up every day it isn't released, which you'll probably do anyway. All the best whatsoever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 Just now, Lethaface said: You can already 'move on' now, allowing yourself to be happily surprised when the game releases. Or you could stay getting worked up every day it isn't released, which you'll probably do anyway. All the best whatsoever. Yes, yes, thank you very much and the same to you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 8 minutes ago, slysniper said: ok, the good news is , when you get the game here shortly. You will be happy with how much content you will be getting. I am sure of it. This is definitely true. And if it’s snow you want I can recommend one scenario that will fulfill your wish. I don’t even need to name it. You’ll figure it out from the title. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffelmann Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 I'll miss all of this when the module is out. Fortunately, you're always waiting for something here! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufo Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said: I don't think that's fair. I work in software and sometimes bugs are incredibly hard to recreate and from what Steve posted a while ago it took he and Charles 5 hours to find the cause, meaning it was an absolute pig to find because of the rarity of it occurring. They may well have tried to replicate it when it was first reported, No I don't think so. I think nobody saw it. There isn't an official "something" where you can report bugs. Just look at for example Paradox's bug reports pages. There is a form to fill, then sometime somebody will check it and they will answer. If needed they ask for more info. Then sometime they will post something like acknowledged, or that was an intended effect an not a bug. Here nobody asked anything. Its not the problem of finding bugs, its the problem of caring about bugs found by the public, thats all. Oh and, by the way, there was even a beta tester posting here that we shouldn't report bugs. That says it all. Like we are imbeciles. Edited April 22, 2021 by Bufo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 well, sure is interesting. I see it differently. There is many bugs reported by users here that I have seen beta testers take the time and effort to try and verify and duplicate and then if proven. Have reported it thru proper procedures that the company has to see about getting them addressed. Why do I know that, because they were kind enough to do it on a few that I had found over the years. You are correct, there is no proper place to report, and I agree. Having a spot for that might improve things. Presently, it does take getting the attention of the right people to have them want to look into a issue that someone thinks they have found. And since they are all just doing this as a pastime and its not a job, it s not like they are going to delve into every issue someone might thinks exist. I found that I needed to find, create test and post my findings to get the process started, then a beta tester might be willing to look at it, then report it up the chain. Now if you are generally making beta testers mad, complaining and not putting in the hard work of proving what the issue is and how to duplicate it. it might be hard for them to want to take their time to chase after your issue on their own personnel time. So that is the present system, want to have success, learn to work with what is available. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 8 minutes ago, Bufo said: No I don't think so. I think nobody saw it. There isn't an official "something" where you can report bugs. Correct. For 20 years there has been no official way to do that. And for 20 years our games continue to get better and better. So much so that this whole argument has started over one platoon type in one rare circumstance getting the wrong wrong (and ultimately meaningless) uniform. Think about that for a minute, stop, and think about it some more. 8 minutes ago, Bufo said: Just look at for example Paradox's bug reports pages. There is a form to fill, then sometime somebody will check it and they will answer. If needed they ask for more info. Then sometime they will post something like acknowledged, or that was an intended effect an not a bug. Battlefront is 6 people in total. Should we retask our only programmer to look into each of these bugs? How about the guy that is managing getting Fire & Rubble out the door now? Or should we hire a 7th person to do nothing more than sort through thousands of bug reports every year to find the hundred or so that a) are important and b) we wouldn't have found in a timely manner using the system we have as it exits today. I bet you wouldn't find too many people in support of diverting our existing resources to do this, nor would you find anybody in support of hiring someone new to do it instead of doing something like make the games come out faster. 8 minutes ago, Bufo said: Here nobody asked anything. Its not the problem of finding bugs, its the problem of caring about bugs found by the public, thats all. Caring? Well, that is a judgement and not a fact. And it is incorrect. We do CARE about bugs being fixed. Apparently you guys bitching about one bug don't CARE that over the years our testers have helped us fix tens of thousands of bugs so you never experienced them. And after release we've fixed thousands of bugs, ranging from typos in text to things that crash. We've also implemented countless requests to change things that aren't technically bugs at all. You can continue to say we don't care about making our games the best the can be in an industry completely uninterested in making these games at all. But I think that's a pretty unfair, unsupportable position to take. 8 minutes ago, Bufo said: Oh and, by the way, there was even a beta tester posting here that we shouldn't report bugs. That says it all. Like we are imbeciles. Whoa boy. I doubt that is accurate. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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