Fire and Rubble Update

[Bubba883XL]

but you came back with warts'n'all lol...(joking) 

[Warts 'n' all]

36 minutes ago, Bubba883XL said:

but you came back with warts'n'all lol...(joking) 

I think you meant "But" and "Warts".

[Lethaface]

4 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I think you meant "But" and "Warts".

I'm trying not to visualize those.

[badipaddress]

On 1/4/2021 at 7:28 PM, Lethaface said:

Although I always keep coming back to CMx2 and have recently been playing much more PBEMs because IMO it's just the best game for the subject (and I have various other games and tried to like for example Graviteam and Armored Brigade; but I personally can't recommend them). So, for me yes is the best game in the genre and is alone with regards to the quality of play I get from it.

This.
In my opinion, CM is far from perfect. Graphics are outdated compared to current standard. Of course you do not play CMx2 for its graphic, but appearence also counts and I really hope in a overhaul of the graphic engine when (if) CMx3 is released in the future. I would also like a "detailed in game log" in order to understand why my unit did not fire or did not spot the enemy one. Sometimes this game is so cryptic.
I also could not stand the periodically "paid upgrade policy" of CM engine (quite expensive if you have 4-5 titles). These "engine upgrade" were one of the reason I took a long break from the series years ago.

Having said that, I always keep coming back to CMx2, actively supporting it: in the last 4 months I bought one CMBN module, the CMSF upgrade to CMx2 and I plan to buy CMBS after Matrix release and Fire and Rubble module for CMRT.
The reason is that, for me, CMx2 is the best game in its genre, despite its flaws. I own a couple of Graviteam titles in my Steam library: I've played them a fraction of the time I've dedicated to CMx2.
For me a major plus of CMx2 is that I can play it via PBEM. I currently have 3 matches ongoning with my gaming buddies and I can play during launch breaks, in the evening, etc. With lockdown and smartworking, I can do 1-2 turn a day per each match. Probably CMx2 is one of the most played game I own.
 

Edited January 8, 2021 by badipaddress

[Lethaface]

4 minutes ago, badipaddress said:

This.
In my opinion, CM is far from perfect. Graphics are outdated compared to current standard. Of course you do not play CMx2 for its graphic, but appearence also counts and I really hope in a overhaul of the graphic engine when (if) CMx3 is released in the future. I would also like a "detailed in game log" in order to understand why my unit did not fire or did not spot the enemy one. Sometimes this game is so cryptic.
I also could not stand the periodically "paid upgrade policy" of CM engine (quite expensive if you have 4-5 titles). These "engine upgrade" were one of the reason I took a long break from the series years ago.

Having said that, I always keep coming back to CMx2, actively supporting it: in the last 4 months I bought one CMBN module, the CMSF upgrade to CMx2 and I plan to buy CMBS after Matrix release and Fire and Rubble module for CMRT.
The reason is that, for me, CMx2 is the best game in its genre, despite its flaws. I own a couple of Graviteam titles in my Steam library: I've played them a fraction of the time I've dedicated to CMx2.
For me a major plus of CMx2 is that I can play it via PBEM. I currently have 3 matches ongoning with my gaming buddies and I can play during launch breaks, in the evening, etc. With lockdown and smartworking, I can do 1-2 turn a day per each match. 
 

Sure isn't perfect. And indeed CMx3 with new graphics would be very welcomed!

Personally I don't have much issue with the 'paid upgrade policy'. Basically it's a choice between BFC not putting work into upgrading old titles, or they do work upgrading old title and work needs payment unless people volunteer.

What I do hope is that in the future CMx3 will be 'one family', instead of many different ones each with their own patches etc.
I regularly took breaks from CM due to Real Life or just wanting to play something new. But always come back to it and like you during corona PBEM is ideal for a lunchbreak. 
Only thing is that if work is busy and my head is full of work, PBEMs can be too 'active' for a break. Overload 

[A Canadian Cat]

2 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Sure isn't perfect. And indeed CMx3 with new graphics would be very welcomed!

Would be nice.

2 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Personally I don't have much issue with the 'paid upgrade policy'. Basically it's a choice between BFC not putting work into upgrading old titles, or they do work upgrading old title and work needs payment unless people volunteer.

^^This!

2 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

What I do hope is that in the future CMx3 will be 'one family', instead of many different ones each with their own patches etc.

It would be interesting to see something like this. It is a big architecture issue for sure so really only on the table for a major product rework. They made the choice they have been operating on with the development of CM2. By now they can see the upside and downsides of that choice. I'll be looking forward to Steve talking about he and Charles choice for CM3 at some point.

[badipaddress]

7 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Personally I don't have much issue with the 'paid upgrade policy'. Basically it's a choice between BFC not putting work into upgrading old titles, or they do work upgrading old title and work needs payment unless people volunteer.

Well, I am happy to pay for substantial upgrades (like CMSF to CMSF2). In the past, some updates of the engine for me were really "light" in terms of new features: at 10$ each, if you have 3-4 games, it's almost cost of a AAA title on Steam. Sure they have bundles, but still I could not justify the cost. I'd like spending my money on new contents and not on "almost obligatory" patches. 

7 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

What I do hope is that in the future CMx3 will be 'one family', instead of many different ones each with their own patches etc.

Agreed. Something like "Command Ops 2". The "core" engine (that you can download for free) is the same, then you buy single modules (from Ardennes to East Front) with scenarios and campaigns. 

[Lethaface]

49 minutes ago, IanL said:

It would be interesting to see something like this. It is a big architecture issue for sure so really only on the table for a major product rework. They made the choice they have been operating on with the development of CM2. By now they can see the upside and downsides of that choice. I'll be looking forward to Steve talking about he and Charles choice for CM3 at some point.

Yeah I don't imagine a 'rewriting' like that to be worthwile for a codebase that was started many years ago. But for the future I suspect it will be more easy to maintain. We'll see  

23 minutes ago, badipaddress said:

Well, I am happy to pay for substantial upgrades (like CMSF to CMSF2). In the past, some updates of the engine for me were really "light" in terms of new features: at 10$ each, if you have 3-4 games, it's almost cost of a AAA title on Steam. Sure they have bundles, but still I could not justify the cost. I'd like spending my money on new contents and not on "almost obligatory" patches. 

Having all CMx2 games and upgrades, yes I paid about ~$100+ on upgrades. However considering the time I got out of all games, I thought they were worth it. Of course not all upgrades introduced as much as others, but overall I'd say it's worth it. 
Many AAA titles I own have much less hours / $ spend. Plus they come with a AAA priced new version almost every year. 

Which game that is ~10years old do you still play? The only game for which that is true in my case, is the CMx2 family. So I'm happy they keep the games up to date with the new engine features. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Lethaface

[Warts 'n' all]

2 hours ago, Lethaface said:

I'm trying not to visualize those.

Although you were happy to visualize an extra "t" on the end of "But". 

"Elizabeth, have you been exporting your Whitehall Palace Entire Butt to the Dutch Republic without telling me?"

[Lethaface]

8 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Although you were happy to visualize an extra "t" on the end of "But". 

"Elizabeth, have you been exporting your Whitehall Palace Entire Butt to the Dutch Republic without telling me?"

I guess you trapped me and my preference for the preferred size of certain 'things'.

At the same time you imagined an entire republic where there is a Monarchy. 

[Warts 'n' all]

5 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

I guess you trapped me and my preference for the preferred size of certain 'things'.

At the same time you imagined an entire republic where there is a Monarchy. 

Wrong! It was a republic when Noddle Head and Elizabeth were living in the City of Westminster. 

[Lethaface]

19 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Wrong! It was a republic when Noddle Head and Elizabeth were living in the City of Westminster. 

Forgive me for living in the present

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, badipaddress said:

In my opinion, CM is far from perfect. Graphics are outdated compared to current standard.

For many years I've just excepted and even repeated this premise that Combat Mission graphics are outdated.  Recently I bought and played two other games that I thought were similar to Combat Mission.  I missed Combat Mission graphics when I realized these games didn't even have 3D graphics.  They were basically 2D top down view.  They have some cool features CM does not have but CM far surpasses them in the graphics department.  In one game you can zoom in on a single tank.  But every tank in the platoon looks the same, top down view, nothing special to take a screenshot of.  And even this is not really practical since there is no replay, like CM has.  Most of the time you are forced to play maxed zoomed out for situational awareness.  I don't own Mius but have watched U-tube videos of it.  Those graphics seemed okay but not a new graphics standard as far as I could tell.  I think it may also suffer from lack of replay?  So you mostly have to play zoomed out anyways?  Not sure about that.   

I agree there are games with better graphics.  Probably Grand Theft Auto, Cyberpunk etc.  But those games are a different genre.  I guess it would be cool if CM had those graphics.  But when staying within realistic tactical combat simulations (not first person shooters etc.) what do you compare CM to for graphics? 

Honest question.  I'm just giving some thought to this old premise after playing two other games.      

I'm not sure of any other games where you would be able to get the type of screenshot displayed below.  In CM if you use replay and get down at ground level the below is fairly common.  

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by MOS:96B2P

[Warts 'n' all]

37 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Forgive me for living in the present

I'm quite happy to forgive you. As long as you forgive the Little Gentleman in Velvet. Now can we please get back to the Eastern Front.

[badipaddress]

30 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I agree there are games with better graphics.  Probably Grand Theft Auto, Cyberpunk etc.  But those games are a different genre.  I guess it would be cool if CM had those graphics.  But when staying within realistic tactical combat simulations (not first person shooters etc.) what do you compare CM to for graphics? 

Honest question.  I'm just giving some thought to this old premise after playing two other games.      

Disclaimer: as a wargamer I am used to games with average (or sub par "good ol '90s ") graphics. I know that resources are very limited and CMx2 is a very niche title: it is perfectly fine for me if the devs focus on realism over fancy graphics. I am not complaining, I think that in 2011 CMx2 graphic was GREAT for a tactical sim, now it just shows its age. 

Regarding your question, from a graphical point of view, I think Graviteam games are slightly superior. As for the gameplay, I already said that CMx2 is way better IMHO. 

PS
I know it's a FPS, but ARMA 3 is the one of the most realistical on the market and is also used by professional. Look at the squad in the forest (ARMA 3 engine is from 2013):

 

 

[Commanderski]

Theatre of War 2: Kursk 1943 had fantastic graphics and I wish CM would have went that way. Although I'm not sure how much computing power would be required to have those types of graphics and the same real world battlefield effects ( how CM takes into account the ballistics, environment...etc).

Matrix Games had Panzer Command: Ostfront which really played well had everything you could want except the graphics were a step or two down from CM.  It had an excellent campaign generator and you could fight the entire Eastern Front war from '41 - '45. You had to be careful with your tanks as they carried over from battle to battle and you would get upgrades as time went on.

[MOS:96B2P]

48 minutes ago, badipaddress said:

I know it's a FPS, but ARMA 3  

Yep, FPS games seem to have good graphics.  The compass in the lower right was a nice (probably useful) touch also. 

33 minutes ago, Commanderski said:

Theatre of War 2: Kursk 1943 had fantastic graphics

Sounds interesting.  I never owned that one.  Did it have replay and a free moving camera?

I think four things are probably needed to usefully compare another games graphics to CM graphics.   

First it should be in the same general genre.  I agree GTA 5 has better graphics but I can't scratch the WW 2, itch etc. by playing it.  

It needs to be 3D.  After playing CM for all these years and assuming / agreeing CM graphics were outdated I was a little surprised by games I thought were similar to CM but only had 2D. 

It almost certainly needs to have a replay feature.  If you are compelled to play the game zoomed out for situational awareness you're not going to see much of the close in, screenshot worthy, graphics (good or bad).  You can't rewind to watch the graphics of any cool little sub battles going on etc. 

It should have a free moving camera so you can get around the map and actually see all the graphics.  Even the high end graphic First Person Shooters I think generally lock you into the view of one character at a time or at least the general vicinity of your current character.   

Do any games have these four things and better (or similar) graphics as Combat Mission?  In its genre CM graphics might be more competitive than I had assumed.         

[Commanderski]

20 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Sounds interesting.  I never owned that one.  Did it have replay and a free moving camera?

I'm 99% sure it had replay and yes it did have a free moving camera. It was so detailed that you could see the troops breathing heavy if they ran a bit and they would take over and use an abandoned ATG's. I still have the game on another hard drive, I might have to take a look at that again.

[umlaut]

3 hours ago, Lethaface said:

Forgive me for living in the present

That is what my cat always says

[MOS:96B2P]

15 minutes ago, Commanderski said:

I'm 99% sure it had replay and yes it did have a free moving camera. It was so detailed that you could see the troops breathing heavy if they ran a bit and they would take over and use an abandoned ATG's. I still have the game on another hard drive, I might have to take a look at that again.

+1.    I looked up Theatre of War 2: Kursk 1943.  Some of the videos were uploaded by Battlefront and had the Battlefront start screen with the tank.  I then found the Theatre of War forum under the  Battlefront forum archives.    I thought it sounded familiar but I never played it.  It's also on STEAM. 

I don't think it is current competition for CM but out of curiosity I'm going to look into it some.  If Battlefront was involved with the game it will probably be worth a look.    

[Lethaface]

12 minutes ago, umlaut said:

That is what my cat always says

Your cat is awesome. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Lethaface

[Lethaface]

I played TOW before CMx2 and while it looked better and I had fun playing it, I haven't gone back to it. I got it through BFC at the time, so probably one of the reasons I got into CMSF back in the day.

[MikeyD]

A lot of games you're comparing to CM have budgets equivalent to franchise superhero movies. They even hire movie stars as voice actors. They often have another similarity to franchise superhero movies, as well. They cut corners on the quality of the actual content in preference for visual effects and initial box office draw.

[Erwin]

57 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

A lot of games you're comparing to CM have budgets equivalent to franchise superhero movies. They even hire movie stars as voice actors. They often have another similarity to franchise superhero movies, as well. They cut corners on the quality of the actual content in preference for visual effects and initial box office draw.

+1

[Glubokii Boy]

The way i see it is...Combat Mission is a TACTICAL SIMULATOR...

The majority of the other, prettier games are TACTICAL GAMES...

What I wan't to play is a....

TACTICAL SIMULATOR !

That's why i'm here ...