The_MonkeyKing Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, Andy_101 said: I just heard (unconfirmed) that Ukraine has asked Russia for a ceasefire? The terms are all that matters. Russia and Ukraine are almost as far as possible from each other in this. Both sides have all the incentives to be the one that wants to negotiate and make peace. I believe Russians have been wanting to "negotiate" non stop for 8 years now... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 51 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: They might be counting on a short war and then return to a sort of diplomatic normalcy soon, just like there were not that many consequences from seizing Crimea, murdering people with poision, propping up the Assad regime, etc. Good (bullet)point. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Here is the latest update of the NBC News map titled The Invasion of Ukraine. Zelenskyy said ‘enemy sabotage groups’ have entered the capital Louie Tran @louie_tran · 7h #NEW: (NBC) - Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Thursday that Russian "enemy sabotage groups" had entered Kyiv, the capital, and that he was the "number one target." "They want to destroy Ukraine politically by destroying the head of state," he said in a video. The Kyiv Independent@KyivIndependent·4h️BREAKING: Russia’s forces have entered the Obolon district in Kyiv, where the Ukrainian military is currently fighting them. Ukraine’s Defense Ministry ask residents not to leave their house and prepare Molotov cocktails. The district is approximately 10 km from central Kyiv. Illia Ponomarenko @IAPonomarenkoUkrainian forces defend the northwestern outskirts of Kyiv — Vorzel, Bucha, Irpen. Reportedly, FGM-148 Javelins are on the run. NOTE! In response to badly confused readers of his English, he clarified that he was saying that FGM-148 Javelins are being rushed to the fight, NOT that Javelin units are fleeing. Illia Ponomarenko is a Ukrainian defense journalist who lives in Kviv but was born in the Donbas. It would appear that one UA Javelin operator has the closest possible contact with a journalist. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Russian MOD claims that airborne troops at Hostomel were joined by mech units, Kiev is blocked from the west. DPR and LPR forces advanced 11-12 km ahead with Russian fire support. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Probus Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 Fighter shot down? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, melm said: Russia is already a pariah state, isn't it? She has nothing to lose. Nah. Russia was an unruly neighbour with a bad reputation. North Korea, that's a pariah state. Iran, perhaps. Russia was "on the way" to being a pariah state; its current adventurism has probably pushed it all the way there. It might suit China to have RUS as a client state, similar to the DPRK; they're likely to be the only ones willing to have much to do with 'em after this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkhangelsk2021 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, The_MonkeyKing said: overflowing recruitment offices Was that before or after Zelensky banned males of military age from leaving? https://www.risingbd.com/english/international/news/85373 My honest thought is Oh God, no. I'll be the unpopular one here. The best thing Ukrainians can do for themselves at this point, frankly, is to sue for peace. Those who are thinking about guerilla warfare, you need to ask yourself whether you are thinking harder about Saving Ukrainians or just Pinching the Russians as hard as possible. 1 hour ago, Lethaface said: Might be indeed, although I think that they made a wrong calculation. TBF, the closest analogue I can think of is 1979, when the Chinese took a swipe at Vietnam. Did China become a pariah state? Edited February 25, 2022 by arkhangelsk2021 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUSKER2142 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, arkhangelsk2021 said: My honest thought is Oh God, no. I'll be the unpopular one here. The best thing Ukrainians can do for themselves at this point, frankly, is to sue for peace. Putin is ready to send a Russian delegation to Minsk to negotiate with the Ukrainian one, Peskov said. According to him, Russian delegation will include representatives of the Defense Ministry, Foreign Ministry and Kremlin administration. I really hope that this is the hope for a cessation of hostilities. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Good news for Ukraine--14 hours ago! Link has latest info on this.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10549353/Ukraine-RETAKEN-Kyiv-airport-Russian-special-forces-claims-defense-minister.html Euromaidan Press @EuromaidanPress · 35m "The bunkering vessel Millenium Spirit sailing under the Romanian flag was damaged by the Russian ship in 12 miles on the way to the Pivdennyi Seaport. Details are being confirmed, there is no communication with the vessel", – CinC AF of Ukraine ArticleI found A bunkering vessel transfers oil to another ship, either in port or, more commonly, at sea. Were this the US Navy, this would be part of UNREP (UNderway REPlenishment) operations. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, arkhangelsk2021 said: Those who are thinking about guerilla warfare, you need to ask yourself whether you are thinking harder about Saving Ukrainians or just Pinching the Russians as hard as possible. Gotta agree with this. Hoping from our sofas that ukrainian civilians will inflict a little more losses on the russians, so we can feel better when we practically, as the West fed them to the dogs by provocating Russia and then backing down, is on the verge of unethical. Edited February 25, 2022 by panzermartin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_MonkeyKing Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 How about we stay on the events. So NOT to get locked. 13 minutes ago, arkhangelsk2021 said: Was that before or after Zelensky banned males of military age from leaving? https://www.risingbd.com/english/international/news/85373 Before. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkhangelsk2021 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, The_MonkeyKing said: The terms are all that matters. Russia and Ukraine are almost as far as possible from each other in this. Both sides have all the incentives to be the one that wants to negotiate and make peace. I believe Russians have been wanting to "negotiate" non stop for 8 years now... In any case, looks like that cease-fire might be a bit off in the future: Quote Mr. Putin told Mr. Xi that Russia was willing to enter “high-level negotiations” with Ukraine, the readout said, without offering details. Russia’s foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, indicated at a news conference on Friday that Moscow would not negotiate until Ukraine stops resisting Russia’s military advance. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/25/world/russia-ukraine-war/putin-tells-chinas-leader-that-the-us-and-nato-are-ignoring-russias-reasonable-concerns Sorry, Lavrov, you don't have the Victory Points to call for an Unconditional Surrender. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, panzermartin said: Gotta agree with this. Hoping from our sofas that ukrainian civilians will inflict a little more losses on the russians, so we can feel better when we practically, as the West fed them to the dogs by provocating Russia and then backing down, is on the verge of unethical. Another good point. But I don't agree with the provocation part. On the contrary. We should have armed Ukraine to the teeth, instead of sending some AT weapons and a lot of politicians. That would perhaps have made Putin think twice. But I don't think anything could have stopped the Soviets (which those ex-KGB-thugs still are to me) except full NATO membership. A missed opportunity, because in the end we care more about our wallets and holidays than about human lives. Edited February 25, 2022 by Aragorn2002 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, arkhangelsk2021 said: Quote Moscow would not negotiate until Ukraine stops resisting Russia’s military advance. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/25/world/russia-ukraine-war/putin-tells-chinas-leader-that-the-us-and-nato-are-ignoring-russias-reasonable-concerns Sorry, Lavrov, you don't have the Victory Points to call for an Unconditional Surrender. He doesn't care. "I'll stop robbing you when you hand over your money". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) OSINTtechnical has a minutes old post showing a long column of Tigr STSs and a Ukrainian man trying to impede them, much like tank man in Beijing. Now word on where in Ukraine it was shot. Would show video, but Copy Video function doesn't work. If it did, I could show you the first video. THe second one (below) from the same site shows 2 x Ukrainian Mi-24s operating near Gostomel. The helos are flying in trail, and the lead bird is firing ATGMs. A third video (below) shows military weapons being issued to civilians. The weapon transporter is remarkable indeed, an orange dump truck! The weapons are unambiguously military, since they are in green crates and containers. Unfortunately, practically every weapon in the brief video is almost entirely obscured by the new owner's body! OSINTtechnical got hit with a Sesitive Content notice at a terrible time, despite not posting gore or other verboten stuff. Edited February 25, 2022 by John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeondTheGrave Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) Just thinking about it a little, operationally the Russian attack seems to be drawn straight out of the 1980s playbook as @The_Capt describes. Four or five major axis of advance along virtually the entire front. Each thrust alone would have the potential to unbalance and destroy the Ukrainian's field army and ability to resist. Take for example the Kharkov offensive which threatened yesterday to encircle the Ukrainian Donbass army. But even if that fails, strategic envelopment arms are also in motion to threaten an even deeper encirclement. And the sword of Damocles that hangs over all of this are the supposed thousands of reserves Russia has still yet to commit. Once success is achieved, the second echelon can move in and cement the victory. Even the use of VDV forces, while apparently mismanaged, harkens back to Soviet-style employment. I suppose its not all that shocking, has the US ever really 'moved past' AirLand battle in its conventional warfighting doctrine? I suspect new ideas are lipstick on the same pig. AirLand Battle with Cyber frosting and UAV sprinkles. SO it should be no shock that really Russia is just fighting a modern deep battle here, if it aint broke dont fix it. Just interesting, strange, and sad to see it play out live and in color. Even when you know its coming, what can you do to stop it? Edited February 25, 2022 by BeondTheGrave 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 The arming of civilians looks pretty chaotic but does seem that they will be working alongside military units. I just hope they have AT support in trained hands to deal with the armoured vehicles. Brave people who stand up to the Russian cabal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 25 minutes ago, arkhangelsk2021 said: My honest thought is Oh God, no. I'll be the unpopular one here. The best thing Ukrainians can do for themselves at this point, frankly, is to sue for peace. Those who are thinking about guerilla warfare, you need to ask yourself whether you are thinking harder about Saving Ukrainians or just Pinching the Russians as hard as possible. Peace at what cost though? Basically you are saying they should have accepted the demands of demilitarization and denazification before the invasion started. 35 minutes ago, arkhangelsk2021 said: TBF, the closest analogue I can think of is 1979, when the Chinese took a swipe at Vietnam. Did China become a pariah state? I don't really agree that it is a good analogue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUSKER2142 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, Holien said: The arming of civilians looks pretty chaotic but does seem that they will be working alongside military units. I just hope they have AT support in trained hands to deal with the armoured vehicles. Brave people who stand up to the Russian cabal. In Kiev, armed men shot at a car with unarmed people, saying that "there were saboteurs in it." I think a regular military man should be assigned to self-defense units in order to prevent such cases. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, HUSKER2142 said: In Kiev, armed men shot at a car with unarmed people, saying that "there were saboteurs in it." I think a regular military man should be assigned to self-defense units in order to prevent such cases. I have started to question the sanity of the ones issuing order in Kiev right now. They just hand over AKs to random people, even the Volkssturm were more organized. And these people are going to face massive firepower. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, panzermartin said: I have started to question the sanity of the ones issuing order in Kiev right now. They just hand over AKs to random people, even the Volkssturm were more organized. And these people are going to face massive firepower. Perhaps the Ukrainians know what's coming for them? Perhaps they remember Russian terror and torture? Perhaps not everyone has forgotten the Holodomor? Perhaps some people really chose death above oppression, instead of just uttering empty words and good advice as if watching a soccer game? Has anyone given it any thought how many Ukrainians will be arrested and tortured in the coming years? Personally I hope to have the courage to pick up an AK 47, in such a desperate situation, instead of hiding myself in the cellar. Not sure I would have, but really hope so. Edited February 25, 2022 by Aragorn2002 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 1 hour ago, arkhangelsk2021 said: Was that before or after Zelensky banned males of military age from leaving? https://www.risingbd.com/english/international/news/85373 My honest thought is Oh God, no. I'll be the unpopular one here. The best thing Ukrainians can do for themselves at this point, frankly, is to sue for peace. Those who are thinking about guerilla warfare, you need to ask yourself whether you are thinking harder about Saving Ukrainians or just Pinching the Russians as hard as possible. TBF, the closest analogue I can think of is 1979, when the Chinese took a swipe at Vietnam. Did China become a pariah state? Well the issue here appears to have become not even about the Ukraine itself but the broader declaration of war on "the system" by Russia. Russia is send a message to the international audience, and international community is sending one back. From a western perspective this need to hurt badly in order to deter further actions by any autocratic nation who is looking to step outside the system. So from that point of view that the west will "fight to the last Ukrainian" is a very real thing. Problem is I am not sure even if Russia fails gloriously and is driven back to it own borders I doubt it will carry. Why? Because those ready to step outside the system have all seen the only consequence one must face is angry rhetoric and "sanctions". This is the endgame of a process that has been happening for at least 20 years, the world forming up into "us and them" spheres. I am not sure what the Ukrainians "should do", that is really up to them and the failure to arm/support them well enough to demonstrate sufficient resistance threat is on us; our deterrence through denial or punishment has fundamentally failed in this case. In this regard Putin has already won a victory. What is clear though is that they are really pissed and this war has become less about policy through other means and has become personal, as they all do. Vietnam in '79 is not a good analogy. It had already defeated the US in a grueling war and "commies killing commies" was hardly an international issue at the height of the Cold War. Ukraine is an independent and recognized sovereign state with a functioning democracy which has just been invaded by a global power on grounds that are so thin as to border on childish...very different. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 26 minutes ago, HUSKER2142 said: In Kiev, armed men shot at a car with unarmed people, saying that "there were saboteurs in it." I think a regular military man should be assigned to self-defense units in order to prevent such cases. Yes. And perhaps they should all get a camera on them, so the police can prosecute them after the war is lost... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Until I can find the reporting on the picture above I will not comment. Any link to the news article? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armorgunner Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine Uppdated info, and map showing whats happening on the ground Edited February 25, 2022 by Armorgunner 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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