CMRT - BETA AAR - Soviet Side

[MikeyD]

Different sources assign a ROF of 900 (some 1000) rpm to the PPSh

I've seen as high as 1300 rpm cited. I was being conservative and assuming an 1100 rpm. Nobody knows what number Charles used for the game. Rounds per minute does not literally mean rounds per minute of course. The buzz saw MG42 was supposed to change barrels every 350 rounds or so... so basically every 20 seconds!

Bil writes;

When I do use area fire with SMGs I will only target briefly.

Oh, VERY good idea, that line should be in capital letters in the manual.

[Barticus]

Those crazy russkies liked their PPSHs so much they even tried mounting them in their bombers;

...an experimental installation, but still.

[Vark]

Given their lethality, perhaps this is the model of Papasha Bil's troops are using.

[Battlefront.com]

Sad panda !

I see from your early screenshots that 2 x 71 round mags is exactly what each man gets.

I love that BFC are sticklers for this sort of realism, but dang, that's going to be hard to manage when things get hot.

Generally speaking I allocate extra ammo to all "infantry" for their primary weapons. I'm going to up the allocation for PPSh from 2 drums to 3. I kinda thought I had them set to 3 already.

What I mean by "infantry" is the guys who are supposed to be using their small arms, not crews of heavy weapons or vehicles or HQ personnel, etc.

Steve

[Greup]

I've seen as high as 1300 rpm cited. I was being conservative and assuming an 1100 rpm. Nobody knows what number Charles used for the game. Rounds per minute does not literally mean rounds per minute of course.

I've also seen it cited - here - and that's why I commented

I agree that it would be interesting to know what RoF is coded into the game.

Considering Wikipedia's source for the RoF for the PPSh-41 comes from the Soviet manual for the PPSh-41 printed in 1941 ((Russian) Наставление по стрелковому делу. Пистолет-пулемёт обр. 1941 г. [NSD-41. PPSh-41]. Moscow: Voenizdat. 1941. - run it through Google Translate ) I think we authoratively can rule out higher rates.

Attaining higher RoFs would probably require a modified gun.

The only reference to 1300 I've (now) found is some awestruck fanboy commenting on a YouTube clip (http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=UAJN_8c_RKs) saying "it *appears* to be close to 1300" rpm . Later in the same comment chain he is corrected by another person.

Whatever... Let's see some AAR action instead of this trifling over trivia.

[Baneman]

Baneman, I'd have to go back and look (don't have time right now).. but in the very first encounter when I took down three of the enemy my team used about 30 rounds total.. so not too bad. When I area fired the SMGs didn't fire at all, only the rifle did.. so no rounds were expended then.

There was a lot of firing when the second enemy team (of 5) came into view.. sorry I don't have a count of those round expended. I'll watch in the next encounter how quickly ammo is burned.

Cheers - no need to be totally exact, I was merely looking for an overall indication. Just noting how much is left would be more than adequate.

Generally speaking I allocate extra ammo to all "infantry" for their primary weapons. I'm going to up the allocation for PPSh from 2 drums to 3. I kinda thought I had them set to 3 already.

Rats ! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot ( since I generally play 'Blue' ). And my fellow German officers will probably hunt me down too !

I shoulda kept my mouth shut.

[Sergei]

Я вижу что ты сделал, Греуп...

[LukeFF]

In real life the standard ammo load for a Soviet SMG soldier is 2x drums. This was true even post war. However, it was sure that extra ammo would be carried on the soldier, though it may have been only "loose rounds" and would have to be manually loaded (which takes quite a bit of time).

Is that the ammo pouch for the 2nd drum on the belt (the one below and to the right of the drum attached to the gun)?

[Wodin]

Didn't look scary and epic enough to me. Hopefully the sound effect and the animation\texture is improved before release. Also looks odd the trees not burning.

I will enjoy using flamethrowers but the flame tank didn't look impressive enough. Graviteam Tactics OT34 sounds and looks awesome.

Are the flame textures and sound effects final or still subject to change?

[Macisle]

From the beta screens released with the game announcement, it looks like the original CMBN vehicle flames are still being used. Flamethrower issues aside, I must say I am surprised that the flame graphics haven't been updated by now.

What with the improvements of the other stock graphics since the initial release of CMBN, the incentive to install mods has been greatly reduced. However, the big exception to that is flames. My one remaining MUST have mod is Vein's Flames. It is amazing how much that one mod improves the look of the game.

[Battlefront.com]

Is that the ammo pouch for the 2nd drum on the belt (the one below and to the right of the drum attached to the gun)?

Nope, that's a grenade pouch. Soviets kept that arrangement right up until the end and it lasted even further into Russia's IIRC. the same configuration was used by most Warsaw Pact nations as well.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Cold War Russian Motorized Rifle infantry went into battle with a whole 120 rounds per man. One 30-round mag in the AK and three in the canvas carrier. Hard to believe, but it's true. See

DIA The Soviet Motorized Rifle Company, 1976, p. 43

Given the above, I wouldn't expect to see much more than that on a soldier lugging around a PPSh-41. World Guns says that post 1942, the usual drill was to have a drum in the gun and some 35-round magazines elsewhere on the soldier. Considering the weapon with the loaded drum installed comes in at 12 pounds, or 9.46 pounds with the stick magazine, we're talking quite a bit of weight. With the stick mag in, the PPSh-41 weighs what an M-1 Garand weighs unloaded. That kind of weight for the PPSh-41 might also explain how such high ROF was militarily usable.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/rus/pca-41-e.html

Just read (see thread at title below) that issuing relatively small amounts of ammo is good psychologically, since its meta message is that there won't be much combat. Contrariwise, handing out lots of ammo is interpreted as meaning it's going to be really ugly and, thus, inspires dread. That said, I think we'd all agree that being untrained and handed a rifle with a handful of cartridges is taking the concept a bit far, right?

From a thread over at gun-board comes this on the Finns (included by way of comparison) and their ammo issuance policies:

Post from Wee; thread title Combat ammo load of Russian "frontoviki"

"Preplanned finnish army ammo loads for rifleman and smg trooper were following.

During the winter war:

- rifle: 60 rounds

- smg: 350 rounds

In 1940 following theoretical loads were plsnned but during the circumstances present during the continuation war, they were rarely met:

- rifle: 90 rounds

- smg: 350 rounds

During the Continuation war following loads were taken to use:

- rifle: 45 rounds

- smg: 350 rounds

In all cases, all the rations were multiplied if needed. For example, doubled for assault operations or tripled for longer patrol operations. Single rations (for example 45 rounds for rifle during the continuation war) were used especially in rear-line duty.

Note: Take a look at finnish substitute ammo bandoliers made in the early continuation war. Those were used mainly in rear-line duty and contained 9 pockets for single stripper clips which makes total of 45 rounds."

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bil Hardenberger]

Reconnaissance

Thought I would share with you how I am conducting my recon in KT2.... (this image is a composite put together in Photoshop to show all movement orders simultaneously).

1st Platoon/4th Company has the responsibility of clearing the way for 5th Company which will followup along this route.

3rd squad is moving through the heart of this wood moving in a zig zag pattern.. note the pauses given to each. My goal is to not have all teams moving at once.. and to stop and pause from 10-15 seconds at each waypoint (this allows them to spot, listen before moving onto the next waypoint). I am ordering no more than one or two legs of movement per turn, and all movement is Hunt.

2nd Squad is moving up the flank of the forest to clear this route in the standard formation I laid out previously... SMG team in front, followed up by the Rifle team and then the LMG team.

1st Squad is pulling up the rear (platoon reserve) and will be there in case one of the other squads gets into trouble.

Note that as of the end of this turn I had progressed fully through about half of KT2 with no enemy contact.

Let me know if this sort of thing is interesting or not.

[BletchleyGeek]

Very interesting, indeed

I wonder about your short pauses, I have learnt to do those for much longer periods of time on forests, anything between 1 to 3 minutes. Have I been wasting my troopers time? It kind of exposes my guys to mortar stonks, but it also works surprisingly well, especially if my opponent gets jumpy and decides to move

[c3k]

I notice that the pauses are staggered such that any moving unit will have a stationary unit in overwatch near to it. Very nice touch.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Very interesting, indeed

I wonder about your short pauses, I have learnt to do those for much longer periods of time on forests, anything between 1 to 3 minutes. Have I been wasting my troopers time? It kind of exposes my guys to mortar stonks, but it also works surprisingly well, especially if my opponent gets jumpy and decides to move

Miquel, I want a steady movement through the area so am only giving short pauses. Longer pauses are great for LPs and OPs.

[A Canadian Cat]

Let me know if this sort of thing is interesting or not.

Yes, brilliant. Nice composite image showing all the movement orders.

[Flying Penguin]

Let me know if this sort of thing is interesting or not.

Absoulutely! Whilst the cut and thrust part of an AAR is fascinating, I find I learn more from the seemingly mundane.....

[PanzerMiller]

Let me know if this sort of thing is interesting or not.

Yes, most interesting! The graphic does a great job of explaining your moves...

[verulam]

Yes this is very useful. I tend to rush movements, this illustrates the value of patience.

[gunnersman]

Who has two thumbs and finds this interesting?

This guy! :cool:

I never thought to actually have my guys stop and "listen".

[Broadsword56]

Listening halts are extremely important in recon. I think after a number of those HUNT+short pauses, it's also a good idea to have the entire force pause for a full minute -- usually the time to do this is just before the next major terrain feature (say, at a point just before the crest of a reverse slope, or before crossing a road, just before getting in LOS to a cluster of buildings, or to get everyone in place and set up to cover a movement to a new treeline.)

I can see that a platoon on point might use HUNT exclusively with the short pauses, as Bil has done.

But I also find that pure HUNT can be excruciatingly slow and tires the troops as well. So sometimes I compromise a bit and, after some HUNT+pause, I intersperse some QUICK segment between the HUNT segments. This has served me well as long as some of the fellow squads are on HUNT or pausing while the unit on QUICK is moving.

I do this when I need to step up the overall tempo a bit. Sometimes security is the overriding consideration, but other times "get there first with the most men" is paramount and some security has to be risked to achieve it.

What do you think about that, Bil? As always, there are no rigid formulas and the tactical situation must dictate which is best at any given moment.

[Ted]

First let me say that I am not reading Elvis's AAR or anything about what is happening on the Axis side.

And I won't read it until after seeing the outcome of this game.

(This way I will not inadvertently give anything away with my questions or statements)

Yes I find this very interesting and the composite pic is great.

And again, well done Bill. Thanks.

But, not to harp on it, does hunting in the woods "Tiring" your men or perhaps the pauses keep them in the Ready state?

And I'm beginning to think the Germans setup on the other side of the stream in KT3-4-6.

My hunch is you won't find him in KT2 but perhaps you'll bump in to a scout team being pushed forward into KT5.

(But then, many a pixel troopen have been sacrificed to my hunches)

[Broadsword56]

Others know the answer better than I do, but in my experience if you make a long set of HUNT waypoints like Bil's in the photo, "rested" troops will drop to "ready" but pretty much stay there for a good long way. Eventually you'll see "tiring" and then it's best to rest them a minute or two if you want them to stay fresh and not start grumbling about what a martinet you are :-)

[kensal]

It is obvious why fast and quick commands result in tired troops. It is less clear to me why the hunt command has the same effect?