CMRT - BETA AAR - Soviet Side

[John Kettler]

Bil,

As far as the grenade throwers under discussion go, they are undone. It therefore, I guess, becomes a question of whether it should now read Parthian Pyrrhic, possibly pre posthumous shot?!

(retires in confusion)

Regards,

John kettler

[Michael Emrys]

Really dig the movement of the grass in the last half of the vid! :cool: I know that some version of that has existed since the release of BfN, but it seems much more dynamic now and the grass moves in waves the way it does in real life. Kudos to the animators.

Michael

[Sergei]

Really dig the movement of the grass in the last half of the vid! :cool: I know that some version of that has existed since the release of BfN, but it seems much more dynamic now and the grass moves in waves the way it does in real life. Kudos to the animators.

Errhm... it's been the same since CMSF.

To be fair, the effect depends on wind strength which seems to be very strong here, and you just may not have dealt with it before. And this is good news for Bil - gale winds have a pronounced effect on low velocity projectiles such as Panzerschreck rockets.

[Michael Emrys]

Errhm... it's been the same since CMSF.

Hmm. Okay.

To be fair, the effect depends on wind strength which seems to be very strong here, and you just may not have dealt with it before.

I did play some games in the Italian hills where the wind was fairly fresh, but there was no tall grass to be effected by it as I recall. Did blow my smoke curtain around pretty badly though.

Michael

[Tux]

Thanks for posting the video Bil. I agree with others that the OT-34 firing its main gun at the same time as the flamethrower does seem a little OTT...

Does anyone know if there are plans to add smoke to the flame jet as well? Footage I've seen of flamethrowers always has a smoke signature rising from the jet. In game it could possibly be recreated with a vehicle exhaust object attached to the stream?

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bill,

A few questions.

1- When crossing the stream and entering KT3 were you using the fast or Quick command. Did that leave them in the Ready or Tiring state?

2-Same goes for the rifle teams flanking move. Did that leave them in the Ready or Tiring state?

Fast... I don't remember if they were ready or tiring to be honest... I don't think they were tiring. Those short runs usually only have an immediate effect on heavy weapons teams (MGs and mortars).

3-After the 15 second SMG suppression fire why a Fast command and not Hunt?

Is that so the German Team doesn't have time to recover from the suppression?

Doesn't that leave the SMG team more vulnerable while moving fast?

I consider this super short fast move a rush... as such I want them to move quickly, get to the new position, take up positions and be ready for anything. On hunt they could get interrupted by any incoming fire and in these cases I do not want that.

Well if the suppression fire did suppress them then yes this short fast run should get closer and set before the enemy could recover.

4- How goes the ammo situation for the SMG team?

If I recall correctly, in CM1 the SMG units could eat through their ammo in minutes.

Yeah they are burning through it.. and with two KIAs in that team the SMG ammo situation for that team is now not good.

5- Lastly, in the broad view I see black boxes over what I assume to be the supply trucks. What are those?

This is a BETA and there is still some missing art.. the black icons are the pioneer squads.

[MikeyD]

How goes the ammo situation for the SMG team?

I calculated awhile ago that an eleven man submachinegun squad equipped with PPSh has a combine ROF of perhaps thirteen thousand round per minute. If you're not careful with how you utilize them they may turn into single-task units, because they've blown through all their ammo and can't afford to attempt a second task. We ain't on the western front anymore, that's for sure.

[sburke]

I calculated awhile ago that an eleven man submachinegun squad equipped with PPSh has a combine ROF of perhaps thirteen thousand round per minute. If you're not careful with how you utilize them they may turn into single-task units, because they've blown through all their ammo and can't afford to attempt a second task. We ain't on the western front anymore, that's for sure.

Sheriff of Oosterbeek had that same problem for the British. Your Stens were awesome in the street fighting, but you needed to make sure your supply was well sorted. The first rendition of that had me spending the initial turns making sure I could re supply my teams from the first couple minutes of fighting as they were expending ammo so fast they needed re supply after only a couple turns of serious combat. After that you were either scrounging your casualties and pulling back.

[JoMac]

I think the SMG ammo expenditure per turn seems to high and maybe why it causes more casualties then it should.

Reducing the Ammo expenditure per turn should eliviate the problem of running out to soon, and at same time reducing the casualites abit.

Joe

[c3k]

Bah. If your Sten or PPSh gunners are running out of ammo, they're living too long. They need to close the range.

[JoMac]

The Leathality of Automatics were relatively lethal in 1.0 Game Engine ( especially short range ) and now even more so in patch 2.12.

I could understand the possibility of lossing half your squad or more if your position is being over-run or flanked by two sides in a desperate close range firefight.

However, in an overall running battle, you should loose maybe 2-3 men in a squad by Battles End...Not have 2-3 men left.

Even with these lower losses ( 2-3 casualties per squad per battle ), you would be hard pressed to sustain a running Campaign...Maybe why CMx2 Campaigns don't have troops carried over from battle to battle, because there would be no one left by the 2nd battle of a Campaign.

[JoMac]

Bah. If your Sten or PPSh gunners are running out of ammo, they're living too long. They need to close the range.

Ummm, No...After a prolonged 15 minute to an hour firefight suppressing the enemy ( and hoping to cause some casualties ), you retire or replenish your Ammo, then attack or defend the next objective.

[AttorneyAtWar]

Ummm, No...After a prolonged 15 minute to an hour firefight suppressing the enemy ( and hoping to cause some casualties ), you retire or replenish your Ammo, then attack or defend the next objective.

I don't think you know who you are talking to...

[eniced73]

I think the SMG ammo expenditure per turn seems to high and maybe why it causes more casualties then it should.

Reducing the Ammo expenditure per turn should eliviate the problem of running out to soon, and at same time reducing the casualites abit.

Joe

Nahhhh! Why don't we let our men ride little pink ponies and throw bubble gum and lollipops at each other. This game is about shooting and killing! Do I want a PBEM battle to drag on for six months because my men do not want to expend ammo? Not me.

[womble]

I could understand the possibility of lossing half your squad or more if your position is being over-run or flanked by two sides in a desperate close range firefight.

However, in an overall running battle, you should loose maybe 2-3 men in a squad by Battles End...Not have 2-3 men left.

Even with these lower losses ( 2-3 casualties per squad per battle ), you would be hard pressed to sustain a running Campaign...Maybe why CMx2 Campaigns don't have troops carried over from battle to battle, because there would be no one left by the 2nd battle of a Campaign.

You're putting the cart before the horse, there JoMc. It's worth pointing out that the increased lethality is a direct result of the increased rate of fire because every bullet is tracked. Decreaseing the RoF just to extend the endurance of the SMG-armed troops would just mean they get overrun instead of having to re-ammo.

The degree of damage a squad can potentially suck up in an engagement is more a function of the morale rules than the casualty infliction mechanics. Sure, most RL Western Ally formations would be withdrawn after taking heavy (20-30%) casualties; most wouldn't be capable of fighting on, perhaps. If CM units are too blase about their losses, the source of those losses is irrelevant. I tend to find that 20-30% casualties to an element will (unless they're better than average motivation) render a unit "brittle", and useful only for unopposed activity.

[Greup]

I calculated awhile ago that an eleven man submachinegun squad equipped with PPSh has a combine ROF of perhaps thirteen thousand round per minute.

I wonder how you came to that conclusion. Different sources assign a ROF of 900 (some 1000) rpm to the PPSh, which gives a sustained ROF of 11 * 1000 = 11000 rpm for a eleven man squad (that is, initially before any firing has taken place, see below).

Now, since the max size of magazines were 71 rounds every single soldier in the suqad needed to change mags after some 4.3 seconds of sustained fire @1000rpm. Let's assume grabbing a new mag an replacing it took 3 secs we are up to a theoretical max ROF of 60/(4.3+3)*71=584 rpm. For your eleven man smg equipped squad that sums up to 6419 rpm.

According to Wikipedia the 71-round mags were prone to jamming if filled with more than 65 rounds which - if that is correct and used as practice - further reduced the maximum ROF.

Still your point is valid even with factual ROFs. How many mags were issued to the average smg soldier? Couldn't find any info on that by searching the net.

[schwerpunktgrenadier]

Now, since the max size of magazines were 71 rounds every single soldier in the suqad needed to change mags after some 4.3 seconds of sustained fire @1000rpm. Let's assume grabbing a new mag an replacing it took 3 secs we are up to a theoretical max ROF of 60/(4.3+3)*71=584 rpm. For your eleven man smg equipped squad that sums up to 6419 rpm.

According to Wikipedia the 71-round mags were prone to jamming if filled with more than 65 rounds which - if that is correct and used as practice - further reduced the maximum ROF.

Nice work.

[LukeFF]

Please tell me you didn't blue the bolt on it. That was only done during postwar refurbishment.

Bump. That, and please make sure you didn't put a postwar stock on the M91/30 and M38.

[Fizou]

I wonder how you came to that conclusion. Different sources assign a ROF of 900 (some 1000) rpm to the PPSh, which gives a sustained ROF of 11 * 1000 = 11000 rpm for a eleven man squad (that is, initially before any firing has taken place, see below).

Now, since the max size of magazines were 71 rounds every single soldier in the suqad needed to change mags after some 4.3 seconds of sustained fire @1000rpm. Let's assume grabbing a new mag an replacing it took 3 secs we are up to a theoretical max ROF of 60/(4.3+3)*71=584 rpm. For your eleven man smg equipped squad that sums up to 6419 rpm.

According to Wikipedia the 71-round mags were prone to jamming if filled with more than 65 rounds which - if that is correct and used as practice - further reduced the maximum ROF.

Still your point is valid even with factual ROFs. How many mags were issued to the average smg soldier? Couldn't find any info on that by searching the net.

ROF grog...

Bump. That, and please make sure you didn't put a postwar stock on the M91/30 and M38.

Small arms grog..

[invernomuto]

That penal company should help you find any mines.

:D:D:D:D

[Battlefront.com]

In real life the standard ammo load for a Soviet SMG soldier is 2x drums. This was true even post war. However, it was sure that extra ammo would be carried on the soldier, though it may have been only "loose rounds" and would have to be manually loaded (which takes quite a bit of time).

For those of you who do not use Buddy Aid to scrounge ammo, you might find yourselves doing it more with CMRT's SMG troops. High rate of fire and limited ammo means you're going to need all the sources for spare ammo you can find!

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

You're putting the cart before the horse, there JoMc. It's worth pointing out that the increased lethality is a direct result of the increased rate of fire because every bullet is tracked. Decreaseing the RoF just to extend the endurance of the SMG-armed troops would just mean they get overrun instead of having to re-ammo.

Yes, and let's not forget that the conditions Bil has encountered so far are exactly the right ones to have maximum RoF. Cover is extremely good, you don't know where the enemy is, but they are likely very close! Surprise also tends to make the trigger finger a little heavy Anybody who has played Airsoft or Paintball (not to mention real combat) knows all about this.

I remember paintball games where I would go through 20-30 rounds the whole battle because I either never got into a good position before it ended or because I was in situations where trading aimed shots was the norm. Then I'd play one game and go through 300+ rounds in a seemingly unimportant engagement. Which sucked because 300 rounds cost real money out of my pocket instead of the taxpayer's Although paintball ≠ real life, the underlying elements are quite similar. When you get spooked and you think "it's either him or me" you tend not to think long term. It's only after you clear out the threat that you think about your next battle. At least when your ammo supply is ample to start with. When you know you're low on ammo you start behaving differently.

Steve

[Bil Hardenberger]

Yep, as stated keeping my SMGs supplied is going to be a problem. I am sticking to a couple of rules:

1) Use Area Fire as little as possible. When I do use area fire with SMGs I will only target briefly.

2) Do not give specific fire orders for SMG teams... I want them to choose their own targets. This should ensure that when they fire ammo usage will be more efficient.

3) When possible, ensure that buddy aid is used as much as possible for casualties that were carrying SMGs.

By the way, I do not have any SMG ammo on any of the trucks. There was a bug in the early BETAs that effected SMG ammo so I couldn't take advantage of that... so what the SMGers are carrying is all they will have available for this battle.

My SMG Squads (on the tanks) I am saving for any breakthrough attempt that is necessary. I want them ready and fully armed for when that is necessary.

[Baneman]

...

By the way, I do not have any SMG ammo on any of the trucks. There was a bug in the early BETAs that effected SMG ammo so I couldn't take advantage of that... so what the SMGers are carrying is all they will have available for this battle.

...

Sad panda !

I see from your early screenshots that 2 x 71 round mags is exactly what each man gets.

I love that BFC are sticklers for this sort of realism, but dang, that's going to be hard to manage when things get hot.

Can you give us an indication of how much your guys burned through in that little encounter-in-the-woods ? Thanks.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Sad panda !

I see from your early screenshots that 2 x 71 round mags is exactly what each man gets.

I love that BFC are sticklers for this sort of realism, but dang, that's going to be hard to manage when things get hot.

Can you give us an indication of how much your guys burned through in that little encounter-in-the-woods ? Thanks.

Baneman, I'd have to go back and look (don't have time right now).. but in the very first encounter when I took down three of the enemy my team used about 30 rounds total.. so not too bad. When I area fired the SMGs didn't fire at all, only the rifle did.. so no rounds were expended then.

There was a lot of firing when the second enemy team (of 5) came into view.. sorry I don't have a count of those round expended. I'll watch in the next encounter how quickly ammo is burned.