Operation Market Garden announced!

[Seedorf81]

Why do people keep repeating and replying Ad infinitum? I am sorry but i am fed up and this thread is about MG. Can we get back on topic?

Hear, hear!

[para]

Hear, hear!

any particular battle you looking foward to having a bash at?

[JoMac]

Hey Chesty,

Not into CMBO, but I know you still have old copies of CMBB & CMAK that you still like to try out again :-)

Joe

[womble]

for you, it is obvious, but for people from "outside" would not.

if the module "MG" was simply called "DLC" (as in other games) would not be expected that somehow drastically change the game mechanics (general expectations were that much smaller), there would be no misunderstanding.

Only that "DLC" stands for "DownLoadable Content", and MG is also available on disc.

If you can't be bothered to take on board the terminology of what you're thinking of buying, then you can't blame the producers for any disappointment suffered. There is no single standard set of terminology for how games get sold, or the basis on which content/bugfixes/features are released and charged. Assuming one game will be done exactly like any other is plain naive. Assuming that one game's model works for another is equally so.

All this, of course, compounded by second language-itis.

[umlaut]

Why do people keep repeating and replying Ad infinitum? I am sorry but i am fed up and this thread is about MG. Can we get back on topic?

I fully agree. May I suggest starting a new "Discussion on the contents of the Market Garden module"-thread?

[Battlefront.com]

I don't wanted to be aggressive and not everything i wrote in that post was actually referring to you(but it could look like that).

My point is this: People are writing here how they like game/module/whatever and why they like it. Thay say "i like this, this and this" And there is no problem with that. Than come person x who say "but i don't like this or this" or "I hoped it will look different " or it's not worth the money" whatever. And then all starts. 10 people will respond and teach him. They will point to him that's he is irrational, stupid, annoying, rude( and that's a hypocrisy) , that he doesn't know what he is talking or wants something for free etc. They will make next x pages of the topic with tons of post asking the same questions or saying same things over and over even when the "discussion" was in fact finished some time ago and still they would blame him for trolling and making all of that mess. So why is that?

Because that's what happens in a debate? Look at it this way... someone has said "I think this is great for reason X" and you disagree by saying "I think it's not for reason Y". If you can challenge someone's opinion based on X, they can challenge your position based on Y. That's the way it works. And if someone's opinion of Y is that it's faulty logic, wanting something for free, or otherwise not a flawed opinion... what do you expect them to say? "I don't agree with Y, but I'm not going to say why in case Person B can't take criticism?" This would be a rather useless place for debate if there was no debate.

I think part of the problem here is that you're sailing against the wind. Which makes you feel like you're being ganged up on. Which is true, but that's what happens when nobody else agrees with you.

Steve

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Too many negative waves for such a beautiful thing baby.

CM has never disappointed me, so when BFC makes 'em, I buy 'em.

[Battlefront.com]

All this back and forth about value, content, is it worth it or not, graphics, etc. has me very confused.

So, for the time being, I think I'll just stick to playing SSI's Kampgruppe. No need to worry about grass or tree textures, or roads, or buildings, or water etc.

Now, if I could only figure out what hell pulse 3 means I'll be all set.

That's the Atari version. I still have mine, though my old 5 1/4 drive requires periodically rapping on the side to keep working. Or at least it did 10 years ago when I last checked

Steve

[Seedorf81]

any particular battle you looking foward to having a bash at?

82nd Airborne was my hero-outfit when I was a kid, and Jumpin' James (Gavin) my favorite general, so their battles for sure.

[The Steppenwulf]

Too many negative waves for such a beautiful thing baby.

CM has never disappointed me, so when BFC makes 'em, I buy 'em.

Stealing Oddball's music there!!!

Steve, I have a very straightforward request - if it's not to late to get in MG at this last moment: Intel in the scenario editor:-

Currrently, there are options for only "Axis", "Allies" or "Neither".

How about "Both"!?!

See I think both sides with 50% intel or even 100% intel would be an interesting dynamic to throw out there for scenario design. I did post this request elsewhere somewhere on the forums sometime ago. Now I know that you normally will do this only with an upgrade but you have mentioned here that you have some secret features under the hat. And I'm sure the programming is a dead easy undertaking on BF's part. Possible - what say you?

[Battlefront.com]

Some quick answers to various questions raised earlier:

1. Ditch Lock is a feature which, basically, creates steep edged terrain transitions instead of the deliberately rounded transitions normally seen in CM. Use this for drainage ditches and other man made terrain features.

2. Market Garden content can be played in battles from June through September, depending on their real life periods of use. For example, Fallschirmjäger units are available from June onwards. Likewise, Base Game and Commonwealth units that are relevant to September can be used for that time period as well.

3. Maps made with Arnhem terrain features can not be used unless you have Arnhem. They are, in that sense, just like units.

4. Market Garden is the final Module for the Normandy Family. There will be no others. There will, however, be an unknown number of new "Packs". Modules are big beasties with all kinds of stuff needed to recreate a specific battle (like Market Garden) or a portion of the front (like Commonwealth). Packs are much smaller and do not necessarily have a central focus. They are also lower priced than Modules because of that.

5. Combat from October 44 through May 45 will be an entirely separate Family with its own Modules and Packs.

6. It's OK if someone doesn't think this is worth $35. I'm sure that there's things that person is proud of that I wouldn't pay anything for The truth is that, if anything, we underprice our products compared to the amount of effort we put into them for the size of the market we have. If someone wants to prove us wrong by making similar games for less money or with more features, that would be cool to see. We do feel rather lonely in this market niche, what with nobody else willing to attempt to do what we do.

In the end the value of a product is decided by both the customer and the maker. Some don't want to pay $35 for the features we're offering. Fine. They have that right. Our right is to not work for charity and therefore such people have to understand that we're not going to put more stuff in without raising the price to compensate us. Just as people can opt to not buy a product, we can opt to not make it at all. Fortunately for both customers and us, it seems the status quo isn't going to change

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

I just wanted to point out that...

Maybe you should take a look at this thread: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=110504 to get an idea what could be added besides scenarios, campaigns, maps and terrain. There are lots of amazing ideas, which would make the game more fun to play.

the above linked thread contains probably 20 years worth of ideas. There's plenty more just like it too. All of these threads have a mix of things which are good, some which are not good. Some that are technically possible to do, many which aren't. Many are in conflict with each other and others would simply be overwhelming if done with all the other suggestions. In short, Wish Lists are pretty good places to pick and choose a small handful of well thought out, practical, ideas to implement. And it's exactly why we do pay attention to Wish Lists.

But every single thing we implement comes with a pricetag. The more we do, the longer it takes to come out with a release. The more time we put into a release, the more we need to earn from it. The problem with a niche like this is that there's not a lot of "upward room" in the sales spectrum. Meaning, if we put in 20% more effort into a release we are unlikely to see a 20% increase in sales. Which means we'd have to do something like a 20% increase in the price. And since our critics usually complain about both pricing and the amount of content, obviously we're not going to win over someone with more content if we also charge more money.

People want to think that entertainment products somehow defy the normal rules of economics. We'd be pretty happy if that were true too. But such is not the case.

We know better than anybody if we're under delivering for the prices we charge. And how can we tell? By looking at our paychecks. The day we start to get rich is the day we may start thinking we're over charging. I for one do hope that day comes. After pouring 15+ years of my life into Combat Mission it would be nice to have that rewarded. Even if not as much as Angry Birds

Steve

[mjkerner]

82nd Airborne was my hero-outfit when I was a kid, and Jumpin' James (Gavin) my favorite general, so their battles for sure.

I absolutely agree with you, Seedorf!

[mjkerner]

After pouring 15+ years of my life into Combat Mission it would be nice to have that rewarded. Even if not as much as Angry Birds

Steve

If I ever won the lottery, Steve, I'd put you and the rest of BFC on my personal payroll at a very handsome salary (and bennies!), hire whoever the hell else you needed to cover the rest of the war on all fronts and including the Spanish Civil War and Korean War, and we'd all be happy as pigs in mud.

Alas, I don't play the lottery. Sorry.

But I do have cash for every thing you guys ever release.

[Offshoot]

3. Maps made with Arnhem terrain features can not be used unless you have Arnhem. They are, in that sense, just like units.

Can you clarify if "terrain features" in this sense includes the new ditchlocks and not just the buildings etc? I guess in the immediate/short term the answer is yes, in that someone without MG will not be able to play maps that include ditchlocks, but does BF have any plans to provide a patch so people without MG will be able to play maps with ditchlocks, or at least to include them in a future purchasable upgrade?

Because ditchlocks will be able to be included in maps for the entire time period CM:BN covers and are not just specific to the module, it could become quite a hassle figuring out whether you can play certain maps or even opponents.

[Waffen_PL]

Is it logical for you to be tired of something yet return to it all the time and blame for it other?

There is an old saying... it takes two to tango. You keep expressing an opinion that almost nobody agrees with. It's also an opinion that I have said, very directly, is never going to influence our pricing or development plans. Yet you voluntarily continue to voice your opinion and then defend it when it's clear, yet again, that you're not going to get anywhere with it. And then you get upset that you're being challenged and dismissed, in the process saying that everybody else is at fault for this outcome and you played no part in it.

So if you're asking if I think your behavior is logical... no, I do not

Actually no but being rude for person B and then pointing out him for bad manners is a little weird for me.

"Rude" is often in the eye of the beholder more than it is actual fact. I don't think you're being rude, but I do think you're purposefully continuing something which has no value to anybody. And that sort of behavior does start to get on people's nerves after awhile.

Steve

[sburke]

round and round and round we go

Back to MG. I can't wait. I have a campaign game to participate in and $35 is nothing if it gives us the material to fire that up!! Wow there are other scenarios and campaigns included with the game?! Hot dog, bonus!!!!

[BLSTK]

@ mjkerner:

"If I ever won the lottery, Steve, I'd put you and the rest of BFC on my personal payroll at a very handsome salary (and bennies!), hire whoever the hell else you needed to cover the rest of the war on all fronts and including the Spanish Civil War and Korean War, and we'd all be happy as pigs in mud.

Alas, I don't play the lottery. Sorry."

Unlike my good man Mr. Kerner, I DO play the lottery. And should I ever be so fortunate as to win the Big One, I would gladly bankroll Steve and Company's newest venture in order bring us the War of 1812.

...the first round is on (not at) me!

[Sequoia]

Well, since we do have Steve's attention in this thread, at the risk of sounding like a fanboi I'd like to thank Battlefront for including some things in the module that if they didn't no one would have probably complained but they did it anyway. Specifically:

Kriegsmarine Infantry- I don't think any one would have noticed if they were not included. Finding TO&E info on them must not have been easy.

The Crusader AA- I doubt very much if it participated in the M-G campaign but it's cool and I'm surprised Elmar hasn't been around since the announcement to comment on his favorite vehicle.

The Moebelwagen Flkpz IV. I've already commented on it and it's really going to be fun for me to finally have one in a game. No CMX 1 game did.

Erzatz and Schule (replacement and school) Battalions. It will be interesting to learn about these units. I'm assuming some of the TO&E on these was conjectured as there probably wasn't a standard (I'm guessing) but using them in the game is something I'm looking forward to.

And as someone pointed out, they really didn't have to include windmills as there were none in the area of operations of the battle. Can infantry get to the top of them?

Anyway I'm sure I can think of some more (the Hellcat for instance could have waited for the first pack) but those are just a few.

[Vark]

Pretty please!

[Buzz]

Vark... you linked to my intro video!

I toggle War Movie Mode ON

[Buzz]

BFC has stated repeatedly and from the beginning that the completed CMBN title would run from Overlord thru September and the separate Bulge title would cover the change of seasons - October through war's end in the spring. And they've stated their reasons for doing it on multiple occasions. I don't know where people are getting other impressions, I haven't even seen discussion board speculation about CMBN timeline being expanded beyond September.

Impressions = idea, feeling, or opinion about something or someone, formed without conscious thought or on the basis of little evidence....

[Vinnart]

Very awesome to see the hellcat making it's debut! It has always been a favorite.

[Battlefront.com]

Can you clarify if "terrain features" in this sense includes the new ditchlocks and not just the buildings etc?

Sure, no problem. The Ditch Lock feature itself is not specific to Market Garden. Which means even without Market Garden you'll be able to use this feature when the v2.10 patch comes out for the Base Game/Commonwealth users.

Because ditchlocks will be able to be included in maps for the entire time period CM:BN covers and are not just specific to the module, it could become quite a hassle figuring out whether you can play certain maps or even opponents.

Exactly

Long ago we had to decide how to handle expansions. The easiest method is the most common one and that is to bundle all new stuff into a brand new release and forget all about the old one. Maybe offer an upgrade discount, maybe not. But either way, if you have the older version you're cut off until you buy something new. The other related method is to offer a linear path of new content. If you want anything new you must buy the latest expansion and you can't skip any.

We do, in fact, think of what you guys want before we make a decision like this. And we figured you guys would want more flexibility, more choice. So we developed a system where you can purchase additional content or not, but still be playing the same game. The person who bought Shock Force when it first came out, but nothing after, has exactly the same game as the person who bought all three Modules. Likewise, someone who only bought Marines or only bought British Forces or only bought NATO or bought any two all are able to play against each other using the same game system. At no extra cost.

Now things are a little more complicated because we're doing multiple Families at once and so improvements for one aren't naturally available for the other. This means a lot more work on our part to bring Family A up to Family B's standards, so the Upgrade does come at a cost. But players are still not required to purchase Modules they don't want nor have to purchase them in a particular order. Though it is true that someone who has not Upgraded Normandy to v2.0 can not play against someone who has. Obviously there is both a technical and an economic limit to how much we can do for people in terms of flexibility and cost free improvements.

The only downside of the way we're doing things is we do, from time to time, run into challenges where doing something one way could cause incompatibilities and confusion for those who have not bought everything. It's something we are very conscious of and try very, very hard to minimize it to the degree we think is best for everybody on the whole.

So far it seems to have worked out pretty well for you guys

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Well, since we do have Steve's attention in this thread, at the risk of sounding like a fanboi I'd like to thank Battlefront for including some things in the module that if they didn't no one would have probably complained but they did it anyway.

You're welcome!

Kriegsmarine Infantry- I don't think any one would have noticed if they were not included. Finding TO&E info on them must not have been easy.

To be honest... we didn't find anything detailed like we have for other formations. What we found was general higher level organizations and mentions of specific weaponry. That and very broad language that they were based on a Grenadier Battalion, which is not surprising since this is true for other oddball organizations as well.

Based on what information we had, I made my best guess as to how these units might have been theoretically organized. I say "theoretically" because it is doubtful that any two of these formations were identical to each other. They were, for the most part, ad hoc even in the quiet sectors of the front. Especially because such units employed whatever hand-me-downs they happened to find locally. They might even have some ammo for 'em

Not only that... then we have the fact that these units were employed quickly and sometimes without the stuff they had because transport couldn't be arranged for, it was in the shop at the time, etc. And of course when a formation starts out with only 1 or 2 of something, it doesn't take long for them to lose it. As well as personnel. Which means Formation A on Day 1 may not look anything like Formation A on Day 10.

If after release someone comes up with better info on how they are organized, I'll be more than happy to take a look at it and make adjustments as needed. Same goes for the other oddball units that Market Garden has in it.

The Crusader AA- I doubt very much if it participated in the M-G campaign but it's cool and I'm surprised Elmar hasn't been around since the announcement to comment on his favorite vehicle.

heh! Well, we tried to include a wide range of AA stuff so that you guys could get it (mostly) all in one go. We also wanted to keep an internal balance that could not otherwise be had if only the Germans had AA guns while the Allies had to wait until a Pack to get theirs.

The Moebelwagen Flkpz IV. I've already commented on it and it's really going to be fun for me to finally have one in a game. No CMX 1 game did.

While their historical use in a CM battle is dubious at best, it certainly is a popular sort of vehicle for CM players. Sometimes we do bend a few of our rules about what should/shouldn't be included

Erzatz and Schule (replacement and school) Battalions. It will be interesting to learn about these units. I'm assuming some of the TO&E on these was conjectured as there probably wasn't a standard (I'm guessing) but using them in the game is something I'm looking forward to.

Think of them as very poorly equipped Grenadier Battalions. Heavy weapons are rare and, when present, usually very out of date. Internal organization is pretty standard, but then when you find that most of your guys have only rifles and there's but a few LMGs... then you'll wonder if maybe you might prefer fighting against them instead of having them under your command

Same with the poor Fliegerhorst guys. But at least they have cool new and different uniforms from all other soldiers in CM. Though I'd rather have a worn out Heer uniform and a MG42 than a snappy uniform with a Kar98k

And as someone pointed out, they really didn't have to include windmills as there were none in the area of operations of the battle. Can infantry get to the top of them?

In them, but not on top of their exterior. There's no Don Quixote mode.

Anyway I'm sure I can think of some more (the Hellcat for instance could have waited for the first pack) but those are just a few.

It's a good list The thing I like the best, so far, is how different the maps feel. It is amazing what some customized historical artwork does for the game. Especially because I've been to Arnhem and have a sense of what the city looked like before it was scarred by war.

I also played THE CRAP out of Close Combat 2. One of the frustrations with the game was it's inherent 2D limitations for urban combat. It's really rewarding to see the battlefield again but this time in 3D.

Steve