Operation Market Garden announced!

[waclaw]

No one used "racist" arguments. He was referring to the fact it was a couple of Polish players that were complaining. Here is the exact quote; "I wondered if our sceptical polish brethren might care to comment". If you find that racially insulting or a "racist" attack, then life is gonna be REALLY tough on you.

Mord.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but not long ago in another thread, some were anti-Polish comments

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=110941&page=33

[Mord]

Maybe I'm overreacting, but not long ago in another thread, some were anti-Polish comments

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=110941&page=33

Yeah, I agree that was uncalled for but Steppenwulf's comment wasn't even close to that. If you guys had been Russians, or Irish, or Aussies he would've said "our Russian/Irish/Aussie brethren". That's all.

LOL we have enough to argue about around here other than where someone is from. His mention of you guys being Polish was nothing more than a description. So, no worries.

Mord.

[sburke]

Yeah, I agree that was uncalled for but Steppenwulf's comment wasn't even close to that. If you guys had been Russians, or Irish, or Aussies he would've said "our Russian/Irish/Aussie brethren". That's all.

LOL we have enough to argue about around here other than where someone is from. His mention of you guys being Polish was nothing more than a description. So, no worries.

Mord.

That's easy to say for our "Mordish" brethren. Hey wait a minute, does this mean you are from Mordor?

[Battlefront.com]

I wrote the truth, completely new vehicle a few, the rest are different variations of already existing - that is a fact. - This is not a criticism, I do not expect a lot of completely new vehicles (give Hetzer!) - A natural for the CM series (which is also a great advantage) that in the game are different versions of the same vehicle.

And you continue with the narrow minded argument which boils down to wanting things for free. Again. You dismiss the value of the other things as if they don't exist. You instead focus on one aspect and then make an unsupportable position to defend your wanting something for nothing. And just like the last time, your argument is full of holes as big as King Tigers.

You dismiss the vehicle variations as not having value because they aren't totally unique. Well, I have news for you... the models didn't miraculously appear out of thin air. Neither did the textures. I don't really mind that you're ignorant of how much effort it takes to make these things, but I would be nice if you understood that you do not. So either we charge for them or we don't make them. That's the choice.

As for the stuff in Italy that is now in Normandy. At the very least we had to redo the textures, and that's not a small task. I also had to build quite a lot of Normandy specific TO&E to support them, which is not a small task in total. But I suppose we shouldn't charge for that.

Then we get to the big flaws in your logic. You are saying that since a model exists one time that every time it appears later it should be for free. So please explain to me why someone who doesn't own Fortress Italy or Gustav Line should get the common vehicles in Normandy for free? There is no rational, logical argument for that. Certainly no business argument.

For those who do own CMFI and/or Gustav Line, they have a choice. They can choose to be happy with Italy and not purchase Normandy products. That's acceptable to us. But no, there is no argument to be made that there should be some sort of price break. That's like saying you should get a VW Jetta for 50% off because you also own a VW Golf and 80% of the engineering, tooling, and manufacturing systems are common between the two. I'm sure this argument would be a real winner at VW headquarters

Oh, and the Hetzer is outside of our timeframe. So no Hetzer.

You really should just drop it. You're arguments are not going to change anything. Almost nobody agrees with you because you're not being reasonable. More importantly, we don't agree with you. And if we don't agree with you, do you really think things will change?

Tell you what. Start up your own wargame company and price your games however you like. It would be fun to see if you could. And if you did how long you'd stay in business.

Besides, I'm such a request, to those which are used in discussing racist "arguments" of the Poles - we do not have to like, respect, you insult me​​, point out my mistakes, but do not use so stupid, childish, ethnic, racist "arguments" .

I do not care if I talk to the Germans, the French, the Jews, or of black people - because of their ethnic origin can not be an argument in a discussion about CM

Now here is something I can agree with!

Steve

[waclaw]

And you continue with the narrow minded argument which boils down to wanting things for free. Again. You dismiss the value of the other things as if they don't exist. You instead focus on one aspect and then make an unsupportable position to defend your wanting something for nothing. And just like the last time, your argument is full of holes as big as King Tigers.

You dismiss the vehicle variations as not having value because they aren't totally unique. Well, I have news for you... the models didn't miraculously appear out of thin air. Neither did the textures. I don't really mind that you're ignorant of how much effort it takes to make these things, but I would be nice if you understood that you do not. So either we charge for them or we don't make them. That's the choice.

As for the stuff in Italy that is now in Normandy. At the very least we had to redo the textures, and that's not a small task. I also had to build quite a lot of Normandy specific TO&E to support them, which is not a small task in total. But I suppose we shouldn't charge for that.

Then we get to the big flaws in your logic. You are saying that since a model exists one time that every time it appears later it should be for free. So please explain to me why someone who doesn't own Fortress Italy or Gustav Line should get the common vehicles in Normandy for free? There is no rational, logical argument for that. Certainly no business argument.

For those who do own CMFI and/or Gustav Line, they have a choice. They can choose to be happy with Italy and not purchase Normandy products. That's acceptable to us. But no, there is no argument to be made that there should be some sort of price break. That's like saying you should get a VW Jetta for 50% off because you also own a VW Golf and 80% of the engineering, tooling, and manufacturing systems are common between the two. I'm sure this argument would be a real winner at VW headquarters

Oh, and the Hetzer is outside of our timeframe. So no Hetzer.

You really should just drop it. You're arguments are not going to change anything. Almost nobody agrees with you because you're not being reasonable. More importantly, we don't agree with you. And if we don't agree with you, do you really think things will change?

Tell you what. Start up your own wargame company and price your games however you like. It would be fun to see if you could. And if you did how long you'd stay in business.

Now here is something I can agree with!

Steve

it's probably some kind of misunderstanding, I just referred to the sentence:

warrenpeace wrote:

"Totally New Stuff, Not found in either CW, CMFI, or GL. I do not guarantee this letter is perfect."

* so I wrote:

"completely" New Stuff ", it is only a few (challenger, hellcat, wirbelwind, crusader) the rest of the vehicles are different variations of already existing"

just for me "Totally New Stuff", is something new which did not exist before (hellcat) and "spw251" or "stuh42" were in other modules, now it will be, so that in the new version - it's a statement of fact, and not complaining.

I wrote earlier that the module "MG" is pretty cool with great content.

[Collingwood]

Leaving the vehicles aside for a moment, I'm excited by the master maps. Really adds value to this module.

[warrenpeace]

Sburke writes

No actually they probably wouldn't. They are two different game families so the existence of anything in one is irrelevant to the existence of anything in the other. By your logic the East Front games should be half priced based on the German units being already mostly done.

The fact is that both CMBN and CMFI use essentially identical game engines. The difference in the games lies exclusively in the data that the engines act on (at least when they are all patched to the current level). In fact I just have never understood exactly why they don't just have one engine and then sell modules. The "family" concept has never really made sense to me. Perhaps it would just get too unwieldy as the number of modules gets bigger.

So I kind of view CM as the engine and a series of modules. The modules are CMBN, CW, CMFI, GL, and now MG. I'm simply arguing that the marginal utility of each module decreases as you own more. At some point, the cost will not be worth the shrinking amount of marginal utility. For me MG, may be that point.

I don't have an opinion on the upcoming EF game. The more different it is the higher its marginal utility will be for me, and the more likely I will buy it.

[sburke]

The fact is that both CMBN and CMFI use essentially identical game engines. The difference in the games lies exclusively in the data that the engines act on (at least when they are all patched to the current level). In fact I just have never understood exactly why they don't just have one engine and then sell modules. The "family" concept has never really made sense to me. Perhaps it would just get too unwieldy as the number of modules gets bigger.

So I kind of view CM as the engine and a series of modules. The modules are CMBN, CW, CMFI, GL, and now MG. I'm simply arguing that the marginal utility of each module decreases as you own more. At some point, the cost will not be worth the shrinking amount of marginal utility. For me MG, may be that point.

I don't have an opinion on the upcoming EF game. The more different it is the higher its marginal utility will be for me, and the more likely I will buy it.

No offense, but though that may be your view, it is not reality. Fact is they are separate games and not just modules. As to the view of marginal utility, that is a subjective perspective. You are certainly entitled to your view and should spend your dollars accordingly. At $35 though I can't say I really understand the constraint. It sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself (and more than likely unsuccessfully in the end) that you don't need it. C'mon, how can you not want to fight the battles in Nijmegen and Arnhem? You know you want to.

As to them all being the same essentially... well I bought a whole lot of the Gamers tactical games. They were all essentially the same "engine". They didn't price them down though because I already had the rule book and they were "just" providing counters and a map. Check out the prices of board games and compare that to the level of work in CM and it's replay capability, map and scenario creation possibilities etc. At $35 it is a steal. Oops did I just say that out loud?

[benpark]

Fallschirmjägers. Fallschirmjägers. Fallschirmjägers. That OOB is pretty useful for CMBN. Aside from all of the other great stuff.

[Broadsword56]

Fallschirmjägers. Fallschirmjägers. Fallschirmjägers. That OOB is pretty useful for CMBN. Aside from all of the other great stuff.

You got that right. When we played the Saint-Lo operational/tactical campaign we could only play out CMBN battles on half the XIX Corps front because the Germans on the E portion (Martinville Ridge, etc.) were all FJ forces. Having the FJ in Normandy makes this, Carentan, and other great battles really possible for the first time.

[Sakai007]

I am very excited for the release of MG. Kind of felt like the Normandy folks were getting left out in the cold while the 'shiny and new' CMFI got all the attention

On the level, financial issues have prevented me from even getting the upgrade to CMBN 2.0 let alone buy CMFI and GL. Now the the next module for CMBN will have most of the stuff I was missing out on from CMFI (read German Paratroops) I will still be able to enjoy all the amazing stuff that's been introduced in CMFI. The $35 for a module is far easier to scrape together then 90 or so for FI/GL.

Also can't wait for CM Black Sea or whatever it's being called now. Be nice to have the new engine set in modern times again.

[sburke]

You got that right. When we played the Saint-Lo operational/tactical campaign we could only play out CMBN battles on half the XIX Corps front because the Germans on the E portion (Martinville Ridge, etc.) were all FJ forces. Having the FJ in Normandy makes this, Carentan, and other great battles really possible for the first time.

Do I hear rumors of a St Lo re run?

[Oddball_E8]

Except when they're not. See GL.

Ach. Indeed. I meant the 1.12 patch that fixes mortars and MGs to the same state as the rest of the game...

Hence the word "usually".

usually

u·su·al [yoo-zhoo-uhl, yoozh-wuhl]

adjective

1.

habitual or customary: her usual skill.

2.

commonly met with or observed in experience; ordinary: the usual January weather.

3.

commonplace; everyday: He says the usual things.

noun

4.

something that is usual: He could expect only the usual.

Idioms

5.

as usual, in the customary or usual manner: As usual, he forgot my birthday.

See?

It doesn't mean always, but I never claimed that either.

[PanzerMike]

Come on everybody, the mood in this thread is turning a bit sour. The imminent release of MG is something to really look forward too. I may be a bit biased though, as Arnhem is my backyard :-)

If you are not interested, fine, don't buy. If you are not sure to buy, fine, wait a while until it is released and you have all the information, and then decide. If you are sure to buy (like me), fine, there is much rejoicing and feasting :-)

Steve also made it clear that there are improvements/fixes/tweaks to the engine, but they will not be disclosed until MG is released. Now I don't like to wait for that kind of info, but Steve can be really cruel that way ;-) We will know soon enough anyway.

[Oddball_E8]

If you are sure to buy (like me), fine, there is much rejoicing and feasting :-)

[waclaw]

Steve also made it clear that there are improvements/fixes/tweaks to the engine, but they will not be disclosed until MG is released. Now I don't like to wait for that kind of info, but Steve can be really cruel that way ;-) We will know soon enough anyway.

exactly, here may be a problem, it is difficult to find some information, because I had the wrong expectations, not knowing what is the difference between a module / patch / upgrade - I'm from "outside", a few days ago someone told me these subtle differences.

in other games (which is the norm) patches fix bugs game, "DLC" add a few new (campaigns, scenarios, new vehicles, etc..) and new modules enhance the game in every aspect (mechanics, graphics, optimization, new terrain, campaigns, etc.)

maybe this is what false expectations?

[Aragorn2002]

Waclaw, there is a certain pattern in your way of posting at this forum. You start with unfounded criticism, people turn sour, you hide behind your nationality or language and then you declare that your good intentions are misunderstood. Enough words have been wasted on your 'arguments'. Perhaps it is best if you return to the Polish community you came from and leave this forum alone, instead of getting other people warned or banned because their patience with you has run out. You annoy people with your 'wrong expectations'.

[ZPB II]

Gentlemen, can we leave that stuff at the door please?

It's been apparent since the start that a non-native English speaker will use phrases and words that carry different weight. Some terms might be more loaded than others. A certain degree of leniency is required, surely this discussion about semantics and manners has been had before.

And as to not appear too biased toward Poland, I will say that we had some rather enthusiastic Polish soccer fans over a couple of months ago. The riot police was called in, something that is exceedingly rare in Finland.

[Oddball_E8]

exactly, here may be a problem, it is difficult to find some information, because I had the wrong expectations, not knowing what is the difference between a module / patch / upgrade - I'm from "outside", a few days ago someone told me these subtle differences.

in other games (which is the norm) patches fix bugs game, "DLC" add a few new (campaigns, scenarios, new vehicles, etc..) and new modules enhance the game in every aspect (mechanics, graphics, optimization, new terrain, campaigns, etc.)

maybe this is what false expectations?

To be honest, a fair number of people pointed out the difference between patches and modules in that other thread but it seems they were ignored by the people it was aimed at.

It is great that you now know the difference, and i hope the others do too, but it was pointed out repeatedly.

[agusto]

IMO all modules i ve bought so far added a reasonable amount of new gaming experiences.

I havent checked the list of what is going to be new in MG and neither am i right now planing to get it in September when it is going to be released, but judiging from my behavior towards CM modules in the past, i know i am going to have to pick it up at some point. Really, at first when i started playing CMSF, i didnt want the marines module but then i bought it anyways a month later. Another month later, i couldnt resist getting the Brits and couple of weeks after that, NATO followed. Same thing with the CMFI and CMBN modules. The modules were like "Oh come on, i know you want it too!". I am kind of a weak character when it comes to CM i guess .

[Vanir Ausf B]

So I kind of view CM as the engine and a series of modules. The modules are CMBN, CW, CMFI, GL, and now MG. I'm simply arguing that the marginal utility of each module decreases as you own more. At some point, the cost will not be worth the shrinking amount of marginal utility. For me MG, may be that point.

What else would you spend that $35 on that would give you greater entertainment value?

[Oddball_E8]

What else would you spend that $35 on that would give you greater entertainment value?

Lets see here...

35$ will buy me:

a number of low-priced games on steam (none of which I am interested in).

one high-quality game on steam (none of which I am interested in).

one 60-day subscription to SW:TOR, the only online game that interests me right now (but not enough to pay for it, so not that).

one evening with pizza, beer and a rented movie. (not comparable to the entertainment I'll get from the module in the long run).

a number of pointless adult toys like an airzooka or remote control miniature helicpoter. None of which would give me the same entertainment value as a module.

Honestly, i can't think of many things that would keep me entertained for as long as a new module would for the same price.

[Aragorn2002]

That is exactly the point: there is NOTHING else comparable to what BF is trying to achieve. Nothing. There is no competion, no alternative. Which makes the moaning even more unbearable.

[Pete Wenman]

a number of pointless adult toys

I wondered where we were going there for a moment !

P

[womble]

Thinking about the new things that MG's bringing to the sandtable, it occurs to me that the new monster bridges hopefully mean that at least the way bridge elevation is handled will have had changes made. At the moment, troops can't go under bridges. If that's the case for those big suspension types, they'll be very effective long walls, or at least their approach ramps will be... But I'm hoping they've nailed that.