noxnoctum Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Just played a guy on Closing the Gap... all his M10s that come out as reinforcements later in the game headed straight for my two panthers (one immobilized) which were on the dirt road next to the little mini bocaged area with a small group of trees in front (off to the right flank of the village from the German perspective). Anyways, the M10s show up in force so I set an arc in that direction for the non-immobilized panther. It showed that it had LOS to at least a couple of the wolverines but it wouldn't fire for a while. Finally after like 3 minutes he started firing. Even stranger, a Sherman rounded the corner of the village (probably... about 150 meters away I'd say... and started firing on my panthers). Thing was in plain sight, no trees, nothing in the way, yet it took 3 shots from the Sherman before the Panthers "officially" spotted it. Prior to that it kept going in and out of being "spotted". Very strange. Eh... I'm just really confused. LOS for infantry makes a lot more sense to me... for armor it's like a crapshoot. I just dunno if they're going to be able to spot their targets... and if they spot their targets, sometimes they just won't shoot. My opponent was having the same issue, though he got the worst of it since he wasn't able to get his M10s to fire on the Panthers in unison (or at all... I'm not sure if they even got a shot off)... Despite his having LOS to my tanks (he said this) his M10s refused to fire. And like I said, my panthers would not shoot at his M10s for about 2-3 minutes so it's like they were suppressed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrams Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Have a friend that was an Armor guy ... Armor is pretty blind in real life ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noxnoctum Posted May 15, 2011 Author Share Posted May 15, 2011 Where exactly does a vehicle draw LOS from? From the TC out of the hatch or from some arbitrary point? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrams Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 That'll take a designer or tester to explain , I'd guess .... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I ran into this exact problem but from the allied side in this battle. I had an M10 in the village with LOS to a panther located at the bridge. I drew the target line to it but it would not fire at it for over a minute. Finally the panther located it and dispatched it in short order. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Where exactly does a vehicle draw LOS from? From the TC out of the hatch or from some arbitrary point? From the complete crew. Every crew member has limits (small slits) and enhancements (scopes) on his senses. These are connected to the real 3D positions in the tank. And they spread their attention according to patterns. At least, that is what I understood from an explanation by Steve some time ago. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Well, I thought that enemy icons that are highlighted are the ones your selected unit can see. But sometimes my infantry or tanks had enemy highlighted and couldn't draw a targetting line to said enemy unit, so I'm unclear as to how this works. Also, an M10 took out a PSW which was NOT highlighted from his perspective ( I was playing Basic Training level so I could switch view to enemy units ). I'll wait for the full game before crying bug though, perhaps with some textures etc. left out of the demo, a few anomalies have crept in ( invisible trees/smoke/somesuch maybe ? ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I've got the same problem with the right flank 57mm AT gun every time. PSW rolls downhill, in plain sight, the 57mm doesn't spot it. After 3 minutes I simply decide to let it fire at the PSW by using area fire. Second shot was a hit and even after the 57mm AT gun hit the PSW it didn't spot it. It immediately spotted the bailing crew though, which bailed after the a second penetration. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSB Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 From what I've met in CMSF, and red on this forum, it seems to me that LOS is checked for each crew member. The driver may have clear LOS to a target but not the gunner (so no LoF); their point of view being slightly different, resulting in a feedback similar to what you describe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSB Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Well, I thought that enemy icons that are highlighted are the ones your selected unit can see. But sometimes my infantry or tanks had enemy highlighted and couldn't draw a targetting line to said enemy unit, so I'm unclear as to how this works. Also, an M10 took out a PSW which was NOT highlighted from his perspective ( I was playing Basic Training level so I could switch view to enemy units ). I'll wait for the full game before crying bug though, perhaps with some textures etc. left out of the demo, a few anomalies have crept in ( invisible trees/smoke/somesuch maybe ? ) If you play in veteran or iron mode, I guess you'll have a much better view of what a particular unit is able to see or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FragerZ Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 If you play in veteran or iron mode, I guess you'll have a much better view of what a particular unit is able to see or not. I refuse to play on noob difficulty. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Having not played CMSF and based on the initial post it can be determined that BORG SPOTTING is officially defunct. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Everytime I see the OP's name under a thread he has found another perceived problem...should have been a beta tester... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 If you select your unit it will show everything it can see. Given we all understand this. This doesn't equate to being able to target them 100% of the time. Did you actually use the Target command to check that way? Can't really remember this problem with tanks to often but with arty spotters in CMSF it seemed to happen more frequently. You could see a unit a but could not draw a targeting line to them and therefore not fire. Were you trying for a tight hull down position? Did you get down low and have a good look? As stated earlier it is most likely the tank commander can spot the enemy but the gun can't see him cause the tank commander is few feet higher and seeing over intervening terrain. It is awkard to fix this cause if you hunt forward you won't move. You probably need to 'move' forward. If you are playing in realtime plot the move command for the next square and when the gunner changes his attitude to aiming you have travelled far enough so cancel the order to stop where you are and preserve you most ideal hull down position (to that enemy anyway). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 One thing that is interesting to do is to start the scenario and go over your units one by one with the T key and look at just what their lines of sight actually are. I was surprised for instance with the quite limited lines of sight of the two US AT guns in the scenario with the Panthers. I moved them around but they still had limited arcs that more or less had them firing at enemy frontal armor, which is less than optimal obviously. The one on the right never got off a good shot before it was destroyed, while the one on the left got only one armored car which wandered too far into the open field near the crossroads. My point: check out actual lines of sight this way and you might be surprised. It might account for some of the issues spoken of here and in other threads. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 This is more for human V human but you probably don't want massive firing arcs. As soon as an AT gun is identified every arty unit with LOS will be trying to kill it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 And of course LOS is NOT equal to LOF 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnsy Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I think LOS is better in a tank if the TC is unbuttoned. Once buttoned they are very limited to what the can see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macisle Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I really noticed this too in Closing the Gap--particularly when trying to get massed fire from my Marders (on Elite). From what I could see, I should have had four guns firing on one tank, but it was usually one or two out of four. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herr_oberst Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I think LOS is better in a tank if the TC is unbuttoned. Once buttoned they are very limited to what the can see. Rule #1 on encountering armor... make em button up with whatever you have got.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'Rogers Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Alright, we've had a number of answers in other threads that said; it's like this in CM:SF. Well, here is a slightly different one. It's like this in CMx1. At least from what I remember. Armor was blind then and, to my understanding, should usually have highly impaired vision. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 We have tweaked and tweaked and tweaked spotting to do the best we can to have armor be as blind as it was in real life. And today, for that matter. Talk to any modern armor crewmemeber and they'll confirm this. As has been said, LOS and LOF are not the same thing. You can have LOS to something but not necessarily have LOF. Spotting is completely separate from both. Unlike CMx1 a unit can only shoot at what it can see, not what others can see. This is critically important. Spotting happens by each crewemember's eyes having a chance of seeing things based on various conditions. For vehicles the most important thing is if they are unbuttoned or buttoned. Next is if the tank commander has a cupola (and some are better than others). Next is what sorts of vision blocks and optics are present, which includes visual arcs. Lastly, number of eyeballs able to see out at any given time. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 LOS and LOF are not the same thing You will discover this when you try using JpzIVs and StuGs in hedgerow fighting in the full game. Darned roof-mounted optics have a parallax problem at near distances like that. You keep firing into intervening ground while having clear LOS through the sight. I've seen reference to a German report about use of armor in Normandy complaining about their Stugs and Jpz IV for just that reason. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Spotting happens by each crewemember's eyes having a chance of seeing things based on various conditions. For vehicles the most important thing is if they are unbuttoned or buttoned. Next is if the tank commander has a cupola (and some are better than others). Next is what sorts of vision blocks and optics are present, which includes visual arcs. Lastly, number of eyeballs able to see out at any given time. Don't forget crew experience as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottie Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Regarding LOS (admittedly i have not read the entire thread) i find my armour unit rarely spot enemy armour (even using cover arc unbuttoned) even when i can spot the ground around them. So i tend to target the ground which most of the time gets a hit on the armour unit covering it. I guess you could argue a command unit is directing the fire , its possible to have Line of Fire but no Line of sight in real life and the software reflects that. Could i get tank crew to bail , spot then re-enter the tank then still see the armour ? ... need to test that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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