I really don't understand LOS in this game sometimes...

[Blackcat]

Regarding LOS (admittedly i have not read the entire thread) i find my armour unit rarely spot enemy armour (even using cover arc unbuttoned) even when i can spot the ground around them...

Presumably, in these circumstances you know the enemy armour is there because it has been seen by one of your other units. If so, what you are experiencing is one of the effects of relative, as opposed to borg, spotting. I used to get this effect a lot in CMSF, most typically when an infantry section, with up to 15 pairs of eyes, could see a tank but a javelin team with of just two men couldn't - at least for a while.

Welcome to the wonderful world of CMx2. I shout at the sceen a lot - it doesn't change anything but yelling on the lines of, "No! No! Look over there. There's a fecking tank, you blind bugger!" does help to relieve the frustration.

[scottie]

Presumably, in these circumstances you know the enemy armour is there because it has been seen by one of your other units ...

Its funny actually, never really saw this behaviour when playing CMSF , or had to deploy the solution i'm using in CMBN. Probably because of the level of C2 / information sharing i guess. I

am not complaining , in fact i enjoy the more manual aspects.

[hoolaman]

Where exactly does a vehicle draw LOS from? From the TC out of the hatch or from some arbitrary point?

The initial coarse LOS check, the one that makes a binary Yes or No LOS result, is traced from an arbitrary fixed setpoint. Usually that corresponds to the top of tanks turret but can sometimes be a bit lower than the commander's hatch. It is traced from exactly where the LOS trace line comes from.

Once this coarse check is granted there is apparently some fancy crewmember's eye thing going on but a problem with the first check makes the fancy bit kind of moot.

[Baneman]

I've had this experience too. Perhaps the ability to "Area fire" at a known AFV that your AT asset can't see is the first example of "Gamey" behaviour to see the light of day - since the Area Target command snaps to the Action Point and the vehicle is in the Action Point, it stands a good chance of being hit.

I did this in Closing the pocket playing as the Americans. The 57mm AT gun could not see the PSW that the entire rest of their feckin' army could see ! Which is a trifle bizarre, since they're not buttoned AND they've got a guy with binoculars...

But they could trace LoS and LoF to the spot it occupied.

Having read on the forum about this very concept, I area fired at the spot and after 2-3 rounds dug in to the hillside, there was a very satisfying clang and the PSW reversed away with Wheel damage.

To me it seems a bit gamey, but until you can see the dirty great big armoured car sitting on the dandelion you're looking at, it will have to suffice.

( Downside is that I then forgot to take them off area fire for 2 more turns, so they blew through a fair amount of ammo hurting that hillside )

[JSB]

When a unit is aware of something (somefink, excuse me...), i.e. there's a "?" marker on the map when it's selected, spotting will be easier and faster.

If you have spotted a tank with a recon team for example, take the time, if possible, to let them communicate with your own tank, outside of enemy LoF, at voice and visual contact distance. (adjacent units do communicate even outside the Chain of command).

After a few seconds/minutes, the "?" marker will appear on the map for the tank crew, which will now be aware of the threat.

Gives better chances to spot and survive!

[Redwolf]

Spotting happens by each crewemember's eyes having a chance of seeing things based on various conditions. For vehicles the most important thing is if they are unbuttoned or buttoned. Next is if the tank commander has a cupola (and some are better than others). Next is what sorts of vision blocks and optics are present, which includes visual arcs. Lastly, number of eyeballs able to see out at any given time.

Steve

I think the questionable thing here is how a target unit drops in and out of being spotted quickly. That is not what people would expect is happening. I don't see how a Sherman can easily become lost unless the spotting tank is driving at high speed.

FWIW, I spent some time in Munster's M48 and used the cupola in different weather conditions, as well as the gun sights and I don't agree that buttoned up tanks are that blind when it comes to other AFVs at the horizon. In good weather the sights in there point out everything around it at the same height at a proper distance very well. That means AFVs distance - spotting infantry around you is hopeless unless you see the movement.

In rain the cupola turned useless in an instant, although I suppose that a moving target will still pop out.

When it comes to the gun sights I don't believe that anybody can lose an enemy tank in there unless the own tank is moving too fast or the commander overrides the turret. And obviously this is not affected by being buttoned up or not.

So, in summary I think what we are talking about here isn't so much the point in time when an enemy unit is spotted first by any member of a team or crew, but how easy that spot is to "stick".

[Blackcat]

... in Closing the pocket playing as the Americans. The 57mm AT gun could not see the PSW that the entire rest of their feckin' army could see ! Which is a trifle bizarre, since they're not buttoned AND they've got a guy with binoculars...

I played that scenario for the first time this morning. I lost both my ATGs to 20mm fire from armoured cars that neither gun managed to spot - neither of them even got a shot off before their crews died. The language in my study was such that my cat got up and walked out and God knows what the neighbours made of my shouting at the screen.

The only rational explanation I can come up with was that the crews were so distracted by the rest of the company shouting, "There is an armoured car over there! Kill it before it kills you!" that they were too busy to actually look.

[JSB]

Were they hidden?

Hiding and spotting (and then shooting) don't match very well in this game.

[Blackcat]

Were they hidden?

Hiding and spotting don't match very well in this game.

No, but the infantry that could see the Acs were!

[JSB]

No, but the infantry that could see the Acs were!

Oh? Sorry! (for your cat, too...)

[FragerZ]

Angry rant below:

K, so I've played as the Americans vs human in Closing the Gap a couple of times now. And it's INCREDIBLY frustrating how COWARDLY the American tank crews are.

I manually make all of the m10's cover arc, unbutton, and hunt into view of the panther all at the same time. But once they eventually spot the panther, they all withdraw. It's incredibly annoying, since it means that there is no way of destroying the panther. My tank crews refuse to engage it, despite that there are 5 of them, and they will still destroy it with a front turret and lower hull hit.

[Michael Ivan]

Now that impresses me. I just get such a great visual that matches descriptions from more than a few books about how that worked in the real thing.

This is in response to JSB's comment on other units spotting an enemy telling other units with no imediate visual about it.

[Battlefront.com]

I've had this experience too. Perhaps the ability to "Area fire" at a known AFV that your AT asset can't see is the first example of "Gamey" behaviour to see the light of day - since the Area Target command snaps to the Action Point and the vehicle is in the Action Point, it stands a good chance of being hit.

It is one of those "gamey" things that we can't do much about. It's probably the single biggest remaining Player as God aspect that Relative Spotting hasn't addressed. Well, that and you can move any unit based on total knowledge at any time of your choosing.

I think the questionable thing here is how a target unit drops in and out of being spotted quickly. That is not what people would expect is happening. I don't see how a Sherman can easily become lost unless the spotting tank is driving at high speed.

Terrain, slopes, smoke, etc. can have a negative effect. Otherwise if two tanks are staring right at each other it will never become unspotted. I've certainly never seen anything to the contrary, nor has any tester noticed it in several years of testing. Therefore, my guess is there's a battlefield condition interfering with the ability to keep a target in focus.

Remember that units do have targeting memories and therefore they will not immediately switch to another target when LOS is broken as happens in CMx1.

FWIW, I spent some time in Munster's M48 and used the cupola in different weather conditions, as well as the gun sights and I don't agree that buttoned up tanks are that blind when it comes to other AFVs at the horizon...

...When it comes to the gun sights I don't believe that anybody can lose an enemy tank in there unless the own tank is moving too fast or the commander overrides the turret. And obviously this is not affected by being buttoned up or not.

Sitting in a motionless vehicle, with pretty darned good optical options (many Shermans have no cupola, for example), and doing nothing but gazing isn't a very good test. Instead, you should talk with AFV crew members and see what they have to say. We have quite a few on our testing team, both active and retired, with a pretty wide range of modern vehicle experiences. If anything we're probably being generous. It's amazing what one mud puddle can do to those optics

Angry rant below:

K, so I've played as the Americans vs human in Closing the Gap a couple of times now. And it's INCREDIBLY frustrating how COWARDLY the American tank crews are.

With a thin skinned vehicle and a really nasty enemy there's a thin line between bravery and stupidity on the thin skinned vehicle's part. At one point we had testers complaining about tanks just sitting there and getting picked off one at a time because they were too brave. Not too long ago we reexamined this as the self-preservation behavior seemed to be a wee bit too active. We tweaked things so they were less likely to pop smoke and obscure their chances of engagement, as well as making them a wee bit less likely to retreat. However, it could be that there's some specific circumstance that is overriding what is otherwise sensible and good behavior.

Steve