Wait a minute?

[sburke]

This is the exact same discussion we had when MG v2 came out with the MG release. Nothing has changed. It is yes another $10. And when v4 comes out it will be another $10 and so on. I do not believe I ever heard a single voice on this forum suggest to BF to not go the route of keeping the engine up to date so suck it up people. This isn't a non profit charity organization.

[sburke]

As one who has repeatedly pointed out that I am not a grog but rather a computer gamer who discovered this great game, allow me to chime in. As one who has avidly played computer games since Gato (1983) I am very happy to pay for CM engine upgrades, here's why.

Almost all of the games I have loved over the years are now "obsolete". Many won't even run on modern computers. If I could have paid a small price to upgrade them I most certainly would have.

I want to see native 64 bit Windows CM, I'm sure it will happen at some point in the future, and when it does I want my "CM library" to be upgraded to 64 bit as well. For this I expect to pay, and as one who appreciates the value and advantages of 64 bit computing I will pay happily. When multi-core support is strategically incorporated I want my earlier titles to enjoy the advantages of these changes as well and I will happily pay for any upgrade offered.

The model for the Battlefield series, the Call of Duty series, the Medal of Honor series, the Dark Souls series, the Grand Theft Auto series, the Max Payne series, the Hitman series, the Elder Scrolls series, the Fallout series, the Madden Football series, the NBA 2K series, I could give many more examples, is to not provide engine upgrades but rather bring to market upgrades and content as a new title. When they do this they leave the old title behind. With the upgrade system no title is left behind!

For me, the absence of tank riding is more worthy of discussion than complaints about paying for an upgrade. Taking into consideration the additional amount of work involved in retrofitting tank riding (AIUI, new models at a minimum) I would have been happy to have paid more for the upgrade if it included this feature. I have a hard time imagining a special "tank riding upgrade" in the future and I know better than to expect new features in a patch, so I have basically given up hope of seeing tank riding in Normandy or Italy. One question I have is if a pack is created with tanks will those tanks be able to have riders? If not isn't the upgrade's feature set incomplete? I ask those questions as one who is happy to have received the upgrade, btw.

I would not necessarily count it out, but it was simply too much effort to do now. I think there is less actual historical reasoning in Italy than NW Europe, but if you think about the bulge title there is plenty of historical argument. If they re do the models for that title I could see that being incorporated in a future upgrade to CMBN and CMFI . Why do that work now and try to price the labor into a patch versus an outright family? We have to try and look at things from BFs view as to where they should invest the labor and when they would expect the best place for a return on that labor. With no other basis for guessing than just that bit of business sense, I think you will see it after the bulge game maybe next year or shortly thereafter? I haven't seen any projections from BF about the last year of the war in NW Europe.

[bobo]

YOU ARE IN THE WRONG THREAD!!!!

POST HERE!

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=116220

Thank you!

Bobo

[Macisle]

We touched on this in the tank rider thread, but I want to add here that, to fully meet customer expectations and make version maintenance less confusing, I'd like to cast my vote for increasing the price of upgrade packages to make sure they include all the most current functionality.

My current understanding of flamethrowers is that the functionality is now there (please correct me if I'm wrong), but they were not included as flamethrower units are content and upgrades include functionality, rather than content. So, assuming this is the case--no problem and fair enough.

However, not getting rank riders is a big disappointment and establishes an unwieldy precedent, I think. BF's explanation about the vast amount of work vs. the $10 price point is totally understandable and I accept it without reservation. But...I have the feature in CMRT under 3.0 and I want it in CMBN, too.

I sure wish we had the option to pay more to cover the costs and get the full functionality contained in RT in BN/FI. My two cents: up the price and make upgrades cover everything (would still have to wait for flamethrower units as content under a module/battle pack, of course).

[fry30]

so I go into the store not knowing about 3.0 buy CMBN at 2.12, then bam, oh buy the way you want 3.0 version scroll down further you got to buy that separately.

sounds to me a little deceiving ...

Just saying..

Well this is exactly what I was talking about. I am much lest apt to go out and buy new modules or "base-games" if I think that they are going to upgrade it within a few months and make all my versions out of date. It happened with CMBN and I'm afraid it might happen with CMRT.

------

While we're on the subject of what we get when we pay for something...

Let's break down what we are getting when we buy a new base game.

Lets say, for arguments sake, you are getting a few new features. I saw CMRT with some great features, and I jumped on it. I am interested in hit decals, moveable waypoints, anti-aircraft fire, working automatic weapons. Bravo. Clearly we need a company like Battlefront to get all that stuff working.

We also need them to code the TAC-AI, create the base environments, and try and put together a working Quick Battle system. Have a few guys from way back put together some scenarios, and bang, we're good.

If I'm missing anything else, don't hesitate to go fanboi on me.

-----

In a normalish world, this is how it would proceed.

1. You can keep the nickel and diming upgrades coming. Make more and more and more and more. I don't care if you release a $10 upgrade every year until I am dead. I'm sure I'll appreciate the features.

2. Stop the monopoly on modding restrictions. I don't want to pay $55+ every other year for what amounts to the same soldiers wearing different uniforms with different equipment. If you toss me a new theatre, like say the Pacific Front or Afrika, we'll talk. Otherwise, keep to your bread and butter $10 upgrades.

3. Really don't have to say much more. A new modding community will spring forth and suddenly with one base game you can be playing WW1 in Flanders, the Vietnam War in Ap Bac. Want to be able to shoot off flares before your rolling barrage (both included in the new amazing can't live without $$ upgrade), fork out some cash, it'll be worth it. Want to use an Air Cav unit in your opening attack? Buy up that fancy new AFV mod that allows in game Helis and reinforcements via para drop.

---------

I guess this is my gripe. I don't want to pay for a new formation. For a new machine gun. For a new tank. This sort of stuff should be mass produced by the community. Sure, stock your games with them, but we won't focus on them for the profit. No, the engine itself commands the money.

Then, when you've got something that actually looks and feels like a finished product, release new features for this new power engine. Charge whatever you want. Hell, come out with a new engine every once in a while. But if we are going to buy what is essentially the same core game every year or two, (not including the modules), why should we be compelled to buy an upgrade for them right out of the box (see above).

In otherwords, the only difference, features aside, from CMBN and CMRT is that one has Americans and the other has Russians.

/Rant.

[fry30]

Oh and if you are wondering about where I am getting these crazy socialist Modding ideas, see the Close Combat, Total War, or Mount and Blade series. All highly moddable. All highly profitable. All very popular. I mean ****, they're still getting people to shell out for a crappy engine over a decade old in Close Combat. Yeah, its a "niche" community, but it doesn't mean you have to treat your customers like you're the only game in town. Unless you truly believe you are the only game in town.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

For serious tactical wargaming at this scale, yes, they're the only game in town, imho.

[Macisle]

For serious tactical wargaming at this scale, yes, they're the only game in town, imho.

Tell me about it. I recently got the whole GTOS collection for $39 on super-sale and I still feel buyer's remorse.

None of those games (haven't played Mount and Blade) comes close to CM for serious tactical wargaming.

[Ales Dvorak]

Almost all of the games I have loved over the years are now "obsolete". Many won't even run on modern computers. If I could have paid a small price to upgrade them I most certainly would have.

I would gladly pay 10$ upgrade for Hellcats "Over the Pacific" and "Leyte Gulf".

[womble]

None of those games (haven't played Mount and Blade) comes close to CM for serious tactical wargaming.

M&B, while fun, and definitely worth a bash, doesn't come close either. But then it's a FPS (where S stands for "slasher" not "shooter") with lots of bots on both sides, so it's not really aiming at the same sector of the gaming field.

[Fizou]

Stop the monopoly on modding restrictions. I don't want to pay $55+ every other year for what amounts to the same soldiers wearing different uniforms with different equipment. If you toss me a new theatre, like say the Pacific Front or Afrika, we'll talk. Otherwise, keep to your bread and butter $10 upgrades.

In otherwords, the only difference, features aside, from CMBN and CMRT is that one has Americans and the other has Russians.

For one, the upgrade is all about features and contain no fromations/vehicles. The later is what moduels and base games are for. If you dont want another base game, dont buy it. I what other comparable game you can mod your own units and give them uniqe stats?

And I never thought Id see a wargamer say that west and east fronts are the same, there are just Americans in one and Russians in the other.

[MikeyD]

Some people don't seem to comprehend what CM is. This isn't 'World of tanks', this is a serious historical tactical simulator. The attention to historical detail is meticulous, as close as a home PC platform will allow. You don't just mod-up a Maus and drop it into the middle of Normandy Because it would be 'fun'. That defeats the whole concept behind the sim. You might as well include dinosaur-mounted laser cannons while you're at it. Heck, they've even reproduced historically accurate sunrise, sunset, the phases of the moon and even star constellations in the sky! You can make out Jupiter in the morning sky in September 9 1943 over Salerno.

[sburke]

Some people don't seem to comprehend what CM is. This isn't 'World of tanks', this is a serious historical tactical simulator. The attention to historical detail is meticulous, as close as a home PC platform will allow. You don't just mod-up a Maus and drop it into the middle of Normandy Because it would be 'fun'. That defeats the whole concept behind the sim. You might as well include dinosaur-mounted laser cannons while you're at it. Heck, they've even reproduced historically accurate sunrise, sunset, the phases of the moon and even star constellations in the sky! You can make out Jupiter in the morning sky in September 9 1943 over Salerno.

No you can't. It was cloudy that day. (Meteorologist grog).

[c3k]

Ken - You could be the last person I would want to disagree with, but I think $100 is probably closer to the right price for one of these games with perpetual upgrades.

Hobo,

Thanks for the check. I just went to the website. A new buyer who wants it all at the cheapest rate has these prices:

CMBN everything to v2.12: $95

CMFI everything to v1.12: $75

CMRT: $55

CMBN v3: $10

CMFI v3: $10

So...CMBN to v3= $105.

CMFI v3= $85

All up, every enchilada, $245. If that's too steep for someone, a full base game can be had for $35.

How long between $10 upgrades (or more, if they're bigger)? About a year? As the families expand, the number of games that can be upgraded will, of course, increase. You may very well be right that the total cost of upgrades will exceed $100. But only to upgrade multiple games over multiple years.

I hesitate to add up how much I've spent on coffee over multiple years.

Ken

[slysniper]

Hobo,

Thanks for the check. I just went to the website. A new buyer who wants it all at the cheapest rate has these prices:

CMBN everything to v2.12: $95

CMFI everything to v1.12: $75

CMRT: $55

CMBN v3: $10

CMFI v3: $10

So...CMBN to v3= $105.

CMFI v3= $85

All up, every enchilada, $245. If that's too steep for someone, a full base game can be had for $35.

How long between $10 upgrades (or more, if they're bigger)? About a year? As the families expand, the number of games that can be upgraded will, of course, increase. You may very well be right that the total cost of upgrades will exceed $100. But only to upgrade multiple games over multiple years.

I hesitate to add up how much I've spent on coffee over multiple years.

Ken

Still not even close to what I paid for ASL many, many ,many years ago, with its modules.

Oh wait a minute, not a good example, since I sold them and got my money back plus some when I finally was willing to part with them.

People do really show their IQ level on this forum at times. You would think if they played this type of game they were smart, but I see below 60 scores with their attitudes at times. (Childish and think the world owes them something)

Anyway, let them whine, if they cannot see the benifits so be it.

Just the feature to run bigger maps and more features is worth the added cost. Now I will agree that what it is providing right now might seem minimal, but given time it will show its value with what is created because of the new features.

For once I am in no hurry to get it, since it adds little to my needs, but I hope that when the next module comes out that I can maybe pick it up at that point and then I might get it for $5 as a bundle. Now that would be a shame.

[Pelican Pal]

Some people don't seem to comprehend what CM is. This isn't 'World of tanks', this is a serious historical tactical simulator. The attention to historical detail is meticulous, as close as a home PC platform will allow. You don't just mod-up a Maus and drop it into the middle of Normandy Because it would be 'fun'. That defeats the whole concept behind the sim. You might as well include dinosaur-mounted laser cannons while you're at it. Heck, they've even reproduced historically accurate sunrise, sunset, the phases of the moon and even star constellations in the sky! You can make out Jupiter in the morning sky in September 9 1943 over Salerno.

Fun police are here! Run for it!

Why don't I just mod up a Maus and drop it in Normandy and use it in my h2h games against friends and against the AI? Does that ruin your game? Modding stuff like that presents a wealth of opportunities to try "what if" scenarios. Much like the CM:FI campaign "what if" exploring the Anzio breakout.

Arma 3 is a serious tactical game, and it is sometimes played seriously by people. Others put 50 cals on go karts and have a very violent version of Mario kart. I fail to see the problem.

It's also important to note that CM isn't coffee. It isn't comparable to coffee. Let's stop doing it.

Anyway I think that forcing users to constantly buy into the 3.0 upgrade is bad business. Any new purchase should include 3.0 as a matter of course. BFC would probably make more money (users spend money that they wouldn't) and it also avoids confusing the absolute hell out of everyone. Right now any new user trying to buy a game needs to spend a day researching what and how to buy stuff. Some bundles mention 2.0 and some don't. 3.0 is sitting off on its lonesome. Why would I buy 2.0 if 3.0 is just better. Does this purchase of CM:BN base game that mentions no update number have the latest update or none at all.

It really is a mess.

[MikeyD]

I think that forcing users to constantly buy into the 3.0 upgrade...

Awh, c'mon! Let's get this straight. Its the board posters who are constantly harping on upgrading & expanding & improving. Improve this, fix that, add the other thing. We want flamethrowers! We want AA guns shooting at airplanes! We want faster framerates! We want hit decal! We want more and more equipment! We want triggers! We want bigger maps! Well, you're getting the improvements that you demand-and-demand-and-demand. Then you btch about it afterward. Btching about the game NOT being historically inaccurate is just plain idiocy. Go play Super Mario Brothers.

[Wodin]

It's been public knowledge that upgrades will cost..so no sympathy. A measly $10...I bough upgrade 2 and it was worth it and I will buy at some point version 3.

Listen everyone bought the game and paid the price for what the game offered at that time. If you didn't think it was good enough then don't buy it.

Now this upgrade makes the game even better but is optional. You where happy buying he original game for that price with that feature set..this game hasn't changed, you still have that game you bought with that feature set. However you now have the option in making it ebtetr for $10..it's upto you.

Why do I have the feeling everytime an upgrade comes out we will get a forum full of complainers acting as if this "affront" has come as a bolt from the blue and has ruined the game they bought..even though it's public knowledge about the upgrade path.

[Mord]

Awh, c'mon! Let's get this straight. Its the board posters who are constantly harping on upgrading & expanding & improving. Improve this, fix that, add the other thing. We want flamethrowers! We want AA guns shooting at airplanes! We want faster framerates! We want hit decal! We want more and more equipment! We want triggers! We want bigger maps! Well, you're getting the improvements that you demand-and-demand-and-demand. Then you btch about it afterward. .

In fairness you left out the part where they do all that and want it for free.

The rest of us, demand, btch, and moan BUT expect to pay for it!

Mord.

[Mastiff]

Awh, c'mon! Let's get this straight. Its the board posters who are constantly harping on upgrading & expanding & improving. Improve this, fix that, add the other thing. We want flamethrowers! We want AA guns shooting at airplanes! We want faster framerates! We want hit decal! We want more and more equipment! We want triggers! We want bigger maps! Well, you're getting the improvements that you demand-and-demand-and-demand. Then you btch about it afterward. Btching about the game NOT being historically inaccurate is just plain idiocy. Go play Super Mario Brothers.

Then you miss the point, the game is then officially in Beta all the time, if your constantly paying for upgrades.

[mjkerner]

Then you miss the point, the game is then officially in Beta all the time, if your constantly paying for upgrades.

How long are you gonna shovel that? If that is the case, then your life is in beta, and so is every friggin' thing ever made that is continuously being developed. Ever by a car, Windows, Hostess Twinkies? The game was the game when you bought it. Now they've developed it more, adding features and improvements. Like the car you drive and bought last year. Too bad, so sad, but if you want a more developed Honda, you'll need to buy a new one. How is it that what otherwise seem to be rational people can't see this simple fact of economic life?

Oh, there is another option, which is to let BFC build everything game they ever plan to build, and develop them to the umpteenth degree, then you can buy them in 2031 and pay several thousand dollars for it. Me, I can't wait that long.

Forgot the next pack of Twinkies and that 6 pack of Heineken, and pay the $10 already, or don't. But stop with the hyperbole, and I promise I will too.

[YankeeDog]

There's always something that can be added or improved. No piece of software, game or otherwise, is ever finished in the sense that there's nothing else that could be done to make it better.

I really don't get all the agita. It's a pretty common model for software development and marketing. For example, I'm a photographer. When I bought Adobe Lightroom 4 for post-processing, it wasn't with the expectation that they would give me Lightroom 5 for free when it came out, even though it's really the same program with some modest incremental improvements.

If I felt like I didn't really need the Lightroom 5 improvements, and they weren't worth the offering price to me, I could stay with Lightroom 4. In so doing, I would end up off the technological "leading edge", and eventually as Lightroom 4 gets older I'd probably find that newer plugins and camera profiles would not be supported, but that's much how things work with software. You can stay with the old, unsupported version for a while without too many issues, but eventually you'll find yourself obsolete.

Similarly, if you don't feel like the 3.0 upgrade is something you need, and it's not worth the $10, you don't need to buy it; you can keep playing 2.12. Most active players and scenario designers will eventually move on to 3.0 so sooner or later you'll probably be pretty lonely playing 2.12 by yourself, but you can't really blame others for moving on and leaving you behind; that's their choice to make.

If you're one of those that goes around expecting something for nothing, you're going to find yourself pretty disappointed with life in general, really.

[postfux123]

BF has a system to keep all games up to date and also expand them. They could just leave the game as it is and concentrate on new projekts - like most developers do. What they offer is service (for money) not a rip off.

There a few examples of games beeing developed like Combat Mission from CMBO to CMBB 3.0 and preserving its character while introducing new features all the time. The balance between realism/playability, freedom of action/micromanagment has been constantly kept just perfect.

I think these guys deserve not only money but also some credit to put that much effort in the game.

Complaining about upgrades is like complaining that we have to pay for CMBB because all the new stuff should already have been in CMBO.

[Myles Keogh]

As predicted, we're seeing another round of teeth-gnashing and rendering of garments by the "Why are we being charged for a patch!?!?" crowd exactly as we saw with the release of CMBN 2.0. And we'll see it again when 4.0 is released. That is if there is a 4.0 because BF could decide it's just not worth the abuse they take for releasing these upgrades.

The biggest example of why I like BF's upgrade policy is CMBO. Almost everyone posting here LOVED CMBO. A truly revolutionary game that certainly changed how I viewed the possibilities of PC wargames. However, BF released CMBB, an evolutionary game, which had numerous upgrades and features over CMBO. Unfortunately, overnight CMBO felt obsolescent in comparison.

Despite a lot of great memories and a lot of fun, CMBO was eventually deleted from my hard-drive and its disk chucked into the dustbin. Meanwhile, CMBB and CMAK remained until another revolutionary game, CMBN, removed them.

I don't want to see what happened to CMBO also occur to CMBN and CMFI. Not just yet. So, I think it's a great thing that BF provides us a way to keep the older games of the series up to date with the more recent releases. I would have happily paid more than $10 to have CMBO upgraded to CMBB's standards, but we were never offered the chance. However, we are now offered the chance with CMBN and CMFI and in my opinion it's something to be happy about.

[Pelican Pal]

Then you btch about it afterward. Btching about the game NOT being historically inaccurate is just plain idiocy. Go play Super Mario Brothers.

No. Arguing that the community can't mod things in because "God forbid if it isn't accurate" is idiocy and pure elitism. It doesn't hurt anything to allow modding in absurd things into the game if users want to.

There are plenty of good arguments BFC has for why modding isn't in the game. They are all perfectly legitimate ones. Your argument isn't any of those things.

Now onto complaining about the price!!! everyone's favorite game!

As someone who has already purchased CM:BN the upgrade makes sense for me (although some sort of upgrade all your families bundle should probably be looked into). However, for a new user the current purchasing scheme is confusing and overly complicated.

There are currently 17 different purchasing options under the CM:BN store page. Ten of these make no mention of version number. Six make mention of V2.0 (two of which are straight v2.0 upgrades), and one is the v3.0 upgrade.

If you just heard about CM:BN from some website or something and came here to purchase something you are almost required to spend hours researching what the hell each of the options are and writing a mini report to adequately understand what each option contained.

Some don't say a version number. So are they the newest and most up to date or not at all?

Some say v2.0. Do I need v1.0 to get 2.0?

Wait there is a v3.0. Isn't that better than 2.0? Why can't I buy that?

Do I need to pay for v2.0 before i can get 3.0?

Why am I paying for patches?

As someone buying the game new I would expect to have the newest update with that purchase. That isn't true at all here. In fact you might be stuck with v1.0.

It would make a lot more sense to leave the 2.0 and 3.0 upgrade option for people who own the games already. Then push every game purchased to the 3.0 version so that every new player very clearly gets the most up to date version.

It would also help if each store page had a coherent list of what each family had.

Long story short the storefront is an absolute mess and the upgrade scheme is only making it more so. The whole system is byzantine.