Vergeltungswaffe

Hey y'all! I'm not dead!
 
I've finally upgraded my CM:BN game all the way. Work on the final (huge) update to "TweakedUI v4 (final)" -to bring it up to "Red Thunder UI" standards- is already well under way. I'm gonna need a couple of bug testers to iron out any problems. Anyone game? PM me!
 
Juju

I had posted this to the repository at the start of the week and so far it has not come up. I am not sure what is going on but thought I would post a link for anyone who is interested.
 
This is a small scenario, Ukrainian Special Forces vs Russians. Playable as UKR vs AI only. There are two AI plans for the Russians. I have not tested the scenario for H2H play. It might work and it might be terrible.
 
Here is the link:  https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ct81paat2vii58c/AACX3IZ0Rv5dyr9W1v0ibJnNa?dl=0
 
If you have any feedback please PM me.
 
Enjoy

Here is a new 90-minute, SP-only scenario for everyone (human player must be the Attacker):
 
S&S1: The Boys are Back in Town (version 1 file removed)
S&S1: The Boys are Back in Town V2 (version 2, 03/14)
 
You command a reinforced Ukrainian mechanized (BTR-70) company, fighting to take back a town from Separatist irregulars with Russian regulars on call as their lifeline. The download includes a tagged copy of Blimey's excellent Separatist mod, which will work with the scenario (readme file included).
 
Here is the map:
 

 
This is the first offering in a series I’m calling Spit & Sawdust. S&S scenarios will use existing QB maps as a base, will not include briefing graphics, and will receive only minimal testing. The goal of the series is to give players reinforced-company-sized SP battles that are significantly better than standard SP QBs, while cutting production-time corners by dropping the normal scenario graphical packaging and thorough testing. S&S scenarios seek to be “good enough” rather than attempting to be a work of art.

I’m not sure how often I’ll be able to make them, but going with this concept offers a much better chance of getting more scenarios out to the community than the standard approach.
 
Anyway, my best to all and I hope you have fun!

This is my first public release of a scenario.  It features a Fallschirmpanzer Division 1 HG counterattack at the end of the war against the 2nd Armored Brigade of the Soviet backed Polish 16th Armored Corps (Polish 2nd Army).  In reality, Major Rossman, the commander of I. Abteilung/Fallschirmpanzer-Regiment 'HG' took the remaining 17 Panthers in the division into an ambush position along a river in Silesia near the town of Kodersdorf, on the Weißer Schöpps River.  Those 17 Panthers destroyed an entire Polish Armored Brigade and an attached IS2 Heavy Tank Company without a single loss.  I included some of the infantry fighting in the area at that time as well to develop the tactical situation.     The scenario uses modern US tactical language and doctrine for tactical orders.  In contrast, the tactical map, is an actual German 1:25,000 scale topographic map of the area from the 1930s.  The German tactical map uses Wehrmacht late-war map symbols drawn on the map in effect to look like grease pencils.  The Polish tactical map uses period Soviet map symbols (red symbols = friendly as well).   This scenario is historical and uses sources largely gathered from the internet.  I created the map with a Google-maps overlay of the modern area, with some interpretation from the 1:25,000 map, and period photos.     I have play tested as both sides, it works well for both sides against the AI.  With the Germans it is possible to destroy every Polish tank without the loss of a Panther.  It is also possible for the Poles to achieve their mission and tactical tasks, albeit with significant loses.     This is a huge map, 2km x 4km.  I reduced it in size from 4km x 4 km to prevent crashes.  I have a newer system and there is a significant AI processing time for a we-go game.  Those with slower machines should adjust graphics settings to make the game more playable.    The file is available at the repository and at http://cmmods.greenasjade.net.   http://s3.amazonaws.com/cmmods-zips.greenasjade.net/CMRT/Rossmann_at_Kodersdorf.rar

LOL. I ran some tests, years ago. I took about a 100 tanks, dismounted their crews. Then, I ran them through sniper alley. Next, I sorted the surviving crew based on which crewmember(s) had been removed. I then remounted the crews. (Just for grins, I really, really, really want anyone to dismount 100 crews, run them around, and then try to figure out who goes where. No, there is no "tank 7/crew 7" logic.)
 
This gave me 100 tanks with various crew positions empty. Most had lost 1. Some had lost 2. A few, 3.
 
Then I put the tanks through their paces.
 
Then I repeated the test a couple dozen times starting with a new batch of 100 tanks each time.
 
The game did a very nice job, IMO, of prioritizing positions. Especially if you imagine the crew is an organic group, not robots.
 
Some tweaking may be nice in certain configurations, but I shudder at the thought of replicating that test...
 
Ken

Personally, I'd rather it was ditched entirely for the WW2 titles. The times a JABO appeared over an actual engagement and hit anything useful are so few and far between, they're not worth considering. The development time would be better spent elsewhere.

You seem to forget the time factor here. CMBN has been on the market at lot longer than CMRT, so of course there are more CMBN mods.
 
CMBN was released may 17th 2011 - 1387 days ago.
 
CMRT was released april 4th 2014 - 334 days ago
 
CMBN
429/1387 = 0,3 mods a day
 
CMRT
183/334 = 0,54 mods a day
 
Ergo: The number of mods released on cmmods for CMRT is nearly double the amount of the mods for CMBN when time is taken into account.
 
You point just became weaker.
 

I'm suspect that the sales of CMRT are not so big that you and I want to be. There are no clear figures (commercial secret, of cause) but the quantity of mods and maps in BF Repository can give as information for a rough estimation. 
So in this situation it is a adequate decision to release new game and not a new module. Sadly...

Hey

I have re skinned the 101st Airborne Uniforms, Also put Ranks on...
I haven't done the Equipment yet.
The Helmets and Uniforms are EZ but i have re skinned them and put camouflage on the helmet.

There will be more types of Uniform colors with ranks for you to choose from Including the 82nd Airborne.

here's what I have done so far...

Hello everyone,
 
As the Axis commander in this campaign (what was kohlenklau thinking???), I want to thank kohlenklau for all the work and creativity he has put into this, and for helping me get re-acquainted with the Tiller Pz Campaign engine. I also want to say that our team has three very, very astute CM Forumites that I have enjoyed getting to know a little bit over the last few days: the inimitable, the one-and-only master tactician and AAR king, Bil Hardenberger;  that geekiest of Geeks, and more-hot-blooded-than-Inigo Montoya, BletchleyGeek, and,  the cool, suave, Bofors gun heir, Fizou. They are a great bunch, and will certainly give the Allies a run for their money.  I'd also like to say hello to the Allied team; we're looking forward to being steamrollered by your Allied might!
 
While rummaging around in my great-uncle's old steamer trunk, I found a treasure trove of items that coincidentally, and quite amazingly, are directly pertinent to this campaign!
 
Here is just a teaser of what I found:
 
 

 

 

 

 
 
I'll be posting more pages from that Archive report as the campaign progresses. It has a lot of meaty information, including bios of the leading officers of the campaign.  Next post has some loose pictures that were in the trunk.
 
Cheers!

Massive OT standby:
 
Nothing especially exciting, most of my tank knowledge isn't much better than a really enthusiastic student of history.
 
I've operated: M1A1HC, M1A2 SEP V2, M3A2
I've been inside of/have hands on experience with a functional: M1A2 SEP, M3A2 ODS BUSK, M2A3
I've been up and close with the following to some degree of "closer than in a museum" M48, M60, K1, K1A1, K200, BMP-1, BMP-2, T-55, and T-72M1
 
I've omitted boring stuff like M113 based vehicles, or HMMWVs.
 
When I was a young LT, the Armor fleet was still something like 60% M1A1s, so when you went through Armor School, if you were going to one of the M1A2 units (mostly 1st CAV and 4th ID at this point), you got to roll around on M1A2s.  If you were like me and going to someplace less modern, you got some vintage of A1 (mine actually had a large decal for emergency numbers to call in West Germany in the event something happened, just to give you an idea of vintage).  Our Bradleys were of even older vintage, they had the A2 armor upgrade, but none of them had LRFs.  LTs of that time period still had to do Bradley gunnery though, so that's why I have time on that platform
 
In terms of tanks though, after my first years in the Army, I went to an M1A2 SEP V2 equipped unit, and did my company commander time there. 
 
Which is the long way of saying "I know late-model M1A1s okay, and M1A2 SEP V2s really well."
 
If you've got other questions, there's some sort of "sericepeople talk about military stuff' thread on this forum, it's likely a few pages down, feel free to drop them in there or personal message me or something.  Don't want to derail this much more.

Ok, I'll admit, the last one is just landscape porn

Grab that air force Lieutenant by the collars, fill yourself with rage and yell at him: "I want air support now!!!!"


Provided one can't do that, I fire up the editor, and delete all air and air defense assets from both sides.

If I wanted air, I go play flight sims. If I have control over air in CM, I'd never let those buggers near my ground troops. (and if I fail to achieve that, I still wouldn't rage because it's my own doing.)

Ported, overhauled and added to, here is my CMBN tree mod tailored for CMBS. Thins out the leaves and sharpens the bark for a more natural look. All files are non brzed, so you can keep what you like and delete what you don't. In addition to the trees and hedge being reworked, I've also included three tweaked ground textures designed to go with this mod (grass, yellow grass and grain). I didn't care for the default grass texture, so I took the one from BN and edited it to fit the aesthetic of BS. The grass texture and distant ground texture are the same lending to a more seamless appearance between map and world box. Up at cmmods for immediate download (since it's probably compatible with RT too), and I'll put it up on the repository when I get around to it: http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/5473/details
 
Now for some pics:
 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Piney forests:

 

 
Color tones between the different trees:

 
Tweaked ground textures:

 
Enjoy.

Must....... Not...... Post...... On...... Topic...... aarrrggghhhhhhh.
 
 
Pantsir and Tunguska cost 15 million USD+ and are only available in limited numbers, if wikipedia is to be believed Russian less than 300 Pantsirs and Tunguskas total. The systems have very small radars which means the engagement distance vs PGMs and HARM is small (~10 km or so, maybe even less against weapons like JSOW and JASSM), they can only engage something like 2 targets simultaneously. These two facts mean they can be saturated pretty easily.
 
 
Lets be real, Carlo lost his mind sometime in 2002. His work was pretty good before that (go read his original AIM-120 article), now he descends into incoherent rants where Su-35s somehow detect F-35s at 100 km and shoot them with R-77s. But since this is Carlo they are probably fantasy ramjet R-77s that have finally made the small and insignificant leap from being a scribble on a napkin to being a fully operational weapon. Seriously did anyone see those simulations they had up on youtube, it's too bad they took them down because that was some funny stuff, the Su-35s had like a 10:1 exchange rate against F-35s. Pretty sure they even presented that stuff to the Australian government. 
 
Riddle me this, how many sorties did the F-117 fly before one was shot down? Every time the F-117 shootdown is brought up I think of the internet stories I have read about the brilliant Serbian captain who modified his X-band SA-3 FCR to work in the L-band or something. It inspired my to modify my CBR 600 to be a submarine. 
 
 
Really hard seems like a bit of an exaggeration, at least when it comes to fighters and AEW&C vs NOE aircraft. 
 
The numbers seem to be on the side of popular opinion. panzersaurkrautwerfer already posted the numbers but lets recap, USAF has 32 E-3s and the USN has 52 E-2Cs plus some number of E-2Ds. This is without counting the AEW&C aircraft of other nations. 
 
 
How long do you expect those jammers to survive, Russian airspace will be significantly more porous in 2017 than in 1987 due to US's use of stealth technology which means those expensive jammers are going to be shot down or blown up. 
 
No doubt an E-3 can be jammed, but anything can be jammed, the tactical usefulness of this depends on the details. 
 
 
Speaking of Russian AEW&C, how will the Russians protect their AEW&C from super cruising F-22s? By the time they realize what is happening the AIM-120s would have hit and F-22s will be hauling ass in the opposite direction. 
 
 
What are the MCRs for the Russian birds under high sortie conditions? I would be very surprised if they were higher than NATO's.
 
Don't turn this into an F-35 thread, we don't need any backseat engineers coming on here to show us how much smarter they are than the boys at Lockmart. 
 
 
It's pretty clear that NATO has massive advantage in training, equipment, and numbers. How many modern aircraft are in the VVS? Original MiG-29s and Su-27s with their 1970s at best electronics don't count as modern. 
 
That Kopp article is a nice mix of extremely basic statistics, super sketchy assumptions, and fanboy fantasy numbers. If the statistics on the R-27's combat performance in the Ethiopian Eritrean war are true than its a pretty crap missile. From what I understand India is unhappy with the R-77. Is the R-77 deployed in any sort of significant numbers by the VVS? 
 
 
Back off topic
 
Did anyone here play on the United Operations ARMA2 ACE server, had some good times there. It is too bad they switched to ARMA3 since there is no ACE mod for that. Red vs Red scenarios were so much fun. 

I have placed them on the Repository but it takes a bit of time for them to actually be available. So if you don't want to wait I have attached them here!V3.11 QB Maps.zip

V3.11 QB Maps contains 27 Maps made in the Method I used in CMBS. These Maps have Full sets of Group orders and use of Triggers. They also use the new naming convention, so these maps will show up generally last in the QB Map list. Hope You Enjoy the them.

you'll never get an impartial assessment out of north americans, what passes for the news there is nothing but propaganda. 

I think this is something Battlefront needs to address. ADA vs Helicopter needs a defiant "re balancing" in order to be realistic, AH-64s specifically are way way too vulnerable. Adding the option to make fast jets immune to ADA during scenario creation is also sorely needed. 

Here's my issue with this:
 
Just because the Russian Air Force is not the Iraqi Air Force does not ensure they will be successful somehow as WAVES OF NEVER ENDING PAK-FAs USE LASERS TO CRUSH AMERICA.
 
No one here is claiming the hapless Russian Air Force will be handily swept from the sky over the course of 20 minutes.  What we are saying is the Russian Air Force as a smaller, less technically capable force, in the face of a larger, more experienced, more technically advanced force is not likely to be able to conduct air strikes in numbers dangerous enough to require building a dedicated ADA platform to be built.  And further, given this reality of the Russians being the high-tier threat, and not being likely to be able to penetrate the CAP without punishing losses, with the remainder of threats falling far, far, far short of even this modest threat, makes an SHORAD vehicle a huge waste of money and time.
 
 
I want you to take that attitude to any other job, and not get laughed at.
 
YOU ARE A DOCTOR AND A PRODUCT OF THE MEDICAL INSTITUTION.  I WILL CURE THIS WITH THE MAGIC OF GEMS BECAUSE I READ IT IN A BOOK AND I HAVE PLAYED VIRTUAL SURGEON SEVERAL TIMES GOOD SIR
 
Or possibly:
 
I have built many model planes, and you sir, are a product of the engineering insitution and do not understand the genius of a jet powered biplane.  I've read books, and I own all the microsoft flight simulators.
 
 
The amount of effort and time spent on those IADS networks, vs the ability of them to stop the bombing force was pretty far out of proportion.  They made the attack uncomfortable, and sometimes lethal for individual planes, but like all passive defenses they could be reduced (and destroyed in the case of Yom Kippur and Iraqi in 1991) or simply are unable to inflict enough damage on the attacker to preclude continued attack (again, SAMS or not, Hanoi had a lot of bombs in the weather forecast, shooting down one or two bombers a night didn't effect that).
 
But I'm glad you brought up Vietnam!  Please explain to me how the helpless Americans were not bombed into submission by the NVAF despite a lack of US ADA (well, Dusters aside but they had other jobs)?
 
 
Camouflage.  Taking halts in locations with concealment.  Hoping the USAF is doing its job.  If Stinger teams are attached to the Company locating them in the most advantageous terrain.   In terms of being a tank/infantry system, your best defense is the enemy doesn't see you.  If it's a leaker SU-27 being chased by F-22s it's likely not going to live long enough to take the time to find me from 20,000 feet, or acquire me if he's bobbing up and over hill masses.
 
This would even be true with a more robust ADA asset like a Linebacker.  I don't want planes to see me.  They will see me if I pop off missiles  or put rounds in the air though, which could bring the harm my way.  Stinger, or even older systems like Vulcan and Chaparral are low enough p/k that unless I am 100% in danger, enemy is coming for us, I'm not going to draw attention to us.  
 
If we're talking about helicopters same drill, unless they're coming my way/obviously are attacking my position. If that's the case we'll volley fire MPAT, a kill is doubtful (especially given the limited elevation of a tank gun) but the amount of crap that'll put in the air runs a good odd at causing a mission kill, or strongly encouraging the enemy to leave.  Even sabot wouldn't be a bad choice, it's short shot to hit time makes it attractive, and the FCS can hack a helicopter at speed.  
 
If the helicopter is on approach and outside the engagement window of the tank gun, massed .50 cal fire will do in a pinch, again the FCS on the CROW can hack if.  If we've got SLAP loaded it'll ruin faces pretty well, but even standard .50 cal will do a lot of damage if massed on a helicopter (while Hinds and the like are armored against that sort of weapon in places, the fourteen or so of those coming off the company is enough to knock out weapons, shred rotors, brown pilot's pants, and generally encourage them to leave right now.
 
But otherwise the best thing for a ground unit to do is stay out of sight, out of mind, and report REDAIR to higher and hope you're about to make a USAF Pilot's day.  

Hi all,
 
I've been plugging away at a National Training Center terrain mod over the past couple days, and I finally feel complete enough to post it and get feedback. Even though CMBS is set in Europe, with the magic of mod tags we can take our M1s and T-72s and throw them against each other in the desert of California. For those not familiar with what NTC is, it's a US military training center in the desert of California, and for the last 25+ years has been the premier center for armored manuever training. For many years an NTC rotation was the "superbowl" for manuever commanders and a poor showing could end careers. Literally hundreds of battles have been fought over and through the manuever corridors of NTC, and almost every major pass, important terrain feature or passible wadi has a unique name that is unforgettable to those that have been there. A quick google search can pull up a myraid of "war" stories that are prime material for CM scenarios.
 
The terrain is mostly a mashup of tiles from CMSF, CMFI, CMRT and my own terrain mods. I've tweaked the colors so they all blend. You can also obviously use this to model any sort of desert type environment, but it's intended to replicate NTC. It's not 100% complete, but enough is there to create something that hopefully looks like the California desert. As I'v'e only had the pleasure of visiting NTC once, I'd love feedback from those who've spent more time in the box on how close I've replicated the look and feel of NTC.
 
This is not complete! There is more I need to polish up. The mod tag you need to use for scenarios is [NTC]: https://www.dropbox.com/s/raeujlvb8rxog1y/AD%20CMBS%20NTC%20Terrain.zip?dl=0
 

 

 

 

 

Great job Bud. I will handle the advertisements!

 

Kieme CMBS USA Abrams
 
Let's be honest, whatever modern game you get your hands on, you can't avoid to feel this one as the battlefield's king. That's why I was so undecided upon so many things that, in the end, I had to base most of the weathering on the few recent photos showing M1A2 SEPs in europe during joint trainings. Thanks also to Saferight's force specific screens mod and its good pictures.
The trickiest part is the side ERA/spaced armor. BFC should really differentiate between the turret blocks and the skirt ones, otherwise you ca't get mud on the lower blocks without splashing unrealistically all the blocks in the same way and the upper turret sides.
 
Download:
https://app.box.com/s/24plheazjvgue3y883gmrqkblhum95ia
 
Changelog:
-darkened and desaturated colors
-enhanced details
-added light rain marks
-added 2 layers of dust and dirt
-added 2 layers of dry and fresh mud
-added subtle scratches
-added local effects
-new normal maps
-includes US vehicle gear and US vehicle MGs textures
 
Previews:

After two years (on and off) and one false start this little project is coming along nicely and has well and truly passed the halfway mark. What was initially going to be one scenario is now a campaign involving two master maps and a long OOB. The maps and OOB are now done and I'm up to mission building and OOB tweaking where needed. Hopefully at the end of this there will be a Canadian based campaign for the community that pushes CMBN, using many of the assets available from this well developed game family. The 3.0 Upgrade and the release of the Vehicle Pack really breathed new life into this project, allowing for a more historical approach.
 
A Brief History Lesson
July 4th - 5th, 1944
Operation Windsor was the first Canadian set piece battle of the north west Europe campaign involving a a reinforced (4 Inf battalions) brigade and an obscene amount of supporting assets. Carpiquet and it's adjacent airfield was viewed by the Germans as a key defensive strong point on the western flank of Caen and a prime tank killing ground due to the open fields and airfield. The relative high ground also gave the Germans a brilliant observation point across the Odon valley and Hill 112 on the other side which was now a key feature following the conclusion of Operation Epsom further to the west. Carpiquet was held by the 12 SS Panzer Division with the strength of one weakened battalion and an array of heavy weapons and armour. The Canadians attacked over a mile of open ground behind a World War 1 style creeping barrage. After numerous delays they managed to take the village to the north of the airfield. Two separate attacks to the south in an attempt to take a series of hangers was beaten back twice with heavy loss in infantry and armour. A second phase of the operation to capture the airfield control buildings to the east was never undertaken following the failure of the southern attack and delays with the northern approach. Despite what was described as an inferno by German survivors the 12 SS held on all day before retreating to the eastern buildings. Three separate counter attacks by the newly arrived 1 SS Panzer Division from the north were beaten back in the middle of the night and into the following morning before the Germans called off trying to retake lost ground. Despite holding most of the objectives, the Operation was still considered a strategic failure and increased the pressure building up on 3 CID's CO General Keller.
 
Historians at the time always viewed Windsor as simply a prelude to the larger Operation Charnwood, however more recently revisionists have explored the theory that the Operation was less about Caen and more about capturing the high ground overlooking Hill 112 for the future Operation Jupiter. Another theory was to take advantage of the confusion across the German lines following the completion of Epsom to take this key piece of terrain that could have been reinforced in strength when the 1 SS Panzer Division arrived in full into the theatre - something 21st Army Group HQ was already aware was about to happen through ULTRA intercepts.
 
Requirements
The campaign will require all modules and upgrades including the Vehicle Pack.
 
Campaign Features
- 6 - 7 battle campaign depending on outcomes. Covers both the Canadian assault on July 4th and the attempts to hold the objectives into July 5th.
- Complete OOB's for both sides with virtually all units on both sides being tracked as 'Core Units'.
- 'Historical' and 'Better Than History' pathways. (So even if you lose a few battles you are still following in history's footsteps )
- A few larger battles (Battalion+) including one 3x hour 'show piece' monster for the northern approach attack. (Hope you like artillery).
- Hobart's Funnies, bunkers, mines, aircraft and naval assets.
- Research bordering on the unhinged... (old history degree from my Uni days came in handy ). To the point where the names of most Company Commanders and higher and the names of the different supporting artillery regiments can be named.
- Master Maps will be included (including varying degrees of destruction) so players can slice and dice for QB's and H2H's.
- Possibly one stand alone scenario for the main northern attack.
- Some mod tags will be used.
 
Campaign Structure
Note: apologies for the swearing - The scenario name is a line used by one of the Royal Winnipeg's officers in the first attempt to take a set of hangers. His superiors expected the battalion to cross over an open mile of terrain without direct support. At the end of the grueling approach were two well entrenched German SS Panzer Grenadier companies with artillery on call. Should sum up the feelings the player has attempting this one.

 
Some pics of the map (clean undamaged version - which you generally won't see in game)
 
Pic 1 - Northern Master Map looking south towards Carpiquet. Canadians assault from the right hand side beyond the railway line. Village at the front of the picture of Franqueville which was the furthest extent of the doomed Canadian attack south on June 7th. Also the base of operations for the German counterattacks on July 5th.

 
Pic 2 - Carpiquet from the direction of the Canadian attack. (Distant shots without all the fortifications don't do it justice).

 
Pic 3 - Southern Master Map looking up at the hanger objective. The doomed Royal Winnipeg attack.

 
Pic 4 - Destroyed beauty. Four different mod tags will be used for the rubble tiles.

 
More soon.
More info can be found here though some is now out of date.
http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/threads/operation-windsor-2-0.17914/

Re: driver spotting

When I was a driver, gunnery was pretty boring. The only fun I got to have was hauling ass back to the ready line after we were done. So I got way into helping spot. Especially when the TC was busting .50. I don't know how table 8 s done now, but in my day the most difficult was Bravo 3 Swing, the dreaded widowmaker. PC, rpg team and troops with a very short time hack. There was a "fire, fire heat and adjust. Caliber fifty!" Command in it. If the TC did not drill the rpg team in the frst burst, you lose that one. Was happy to help.
 
I hate myself for never thinking to do this.
 

 
Very good point. Crew safety is very important. If you fire the main gun when the loader is in the way, he is at least crippled for life, at best. I agree that first round fired he would be out of the way. However, just for the record, I would never fire the main gun without a loud and clear UP!

I trained my guys to holler it at the very top of their lungs. Had a younger kid once who was still coming into his voice. Fun times. Lol

Thanks for the fun chats. I could talk tanks all day. Miss it a lot.

Okay that was a fluke.. Lol .. It ended invariably 4-1 in favor of the Abrams all the other times. And optics did play a big role but Relikt works about 15% of the time