Tactics for dealing with Russian Air Attacks

[humannumber1]

I've been playing through the battles and had a rough time with Russian air attacks in "Objective Delta" (I've seen others mention this too) and as I'm playing "Cry Havoc" I've started losing APCs to Russian Helicopters (after the Russians shot down both of my UAVs to add insult to injury).   

 

My stinger team seemed pretty ineffective in Objective Delta and no stinger teams have shown up in Cry Havoc yet (The briefing mentions them, but it's still somewhat early, so maybe they are coming later?).

 

Has anyone devised any tactics to minimize their losses from Russian air assets? Do I just drive all my vehicles in the the trees when I hear sound effects that suggest there is about the be an air attack? Maybe pop smoke? Do I just pucker up and wait for one of my vehicles to explode?

 

This was touched on a bit in the topic "US Anti Aircraft defences", but that thread is mostly people discussing how the scenario would play out in the real world. While interesting, I'm really looking for ideas about how to handle the situation in the game. 

 

As a player of CMSF, being on the receiving end of air attacks and much more effective artillery makes me feel bad for all those Syrians I was fighting :-P

 

Thanks!

[Skwabie]

Grab that air force Lieutenant by the collars, fill yourself with rage and yell at him: "I want air support now!!!!"

Provided one can't do that, I fire up the editor, and delete all air and air defense assets from both sides.

If I wanted air, I go play flight sims. If I have control over air in CM, I'd never let those buggers near my ground troops. (and if I fail to achieve that, I still wouldn't rage because it's my own doing.)

Edited February 22, 2015 by Skwabie

[humannumber1]

While going into the editor and deleting anything related to air has a certain "kobayashi maru" quality about it, it's not really what i'm looking for.

 

I'm really looking for anything others may have found to work to mitigate the losses from air attacks that are included in the game. Maybe no one has found anything that works great, but thought I would see.

[antaress73]

Scatter and run !!! Lol

[peter thomas]

I'm really interested in this too. I'm playing the UKR campaign and the 'iglas' don't seem to be doing anything.

 

Anyone help as to how to get the most protection from what AD assets you might have?

[Kraft]

afaik hiding in the woods doesn't actually do anything ingame and it even limits your aa units 360° LOS into the sky, but you might aswell do it for realisms sake 

I hope I'm not spreading misinformation..

Edited February 23, 2015 by Kraft

[agusto]

afaik hiding in the woods doesn't actually do anything ingame and it even limits your aa units 360° LOS into the sky, but you might aswell do it for realisms sake 

I hope I'm not spreading misinformation..

 

Trees have a certain chance of stopping incoming heli borne ATGMs and 30mm rounds. Also i believe that trees affect the spotting capabilities of all airborne units, given the effect that trees have on the spotting capabilities of UAVs.

[Philipp]

Same tactics that work against incoming artillery work against air support. In some sense air support is easier to deal with, at least you can shoot back, even if just with tiny stingers.

To give a few ideas:

- Keep moving. Air attacks are limited to an area on me map. And moving targets are harder to hit.

- Take cover. Infantry on lower levels of builings and hide. Trees should help both with cover and concealment. Vehicles snug behind buildings also works sometimes.

- Close with the enemy. You might get out of their radius or they might hit their own guys.

[Bahger]

I still don't understand why there is no vehicle-mounted AD for US forces. I gave up on Objective Delta because IRL if my task force was that vulnerable to enemy air (both helos and fixed-wing) there is a big problem higher up the chain of command and, with nothing better than one Stinger unit, my choice as commander is either to get my units killed when they advance in the open or hide everything and hope for friendly counter-air that never comes because it isn't modeled. Neither option is much fun, or much of a tactical challenge.

If I find myself facing the same kind of decisive OPFOR air superiority in the US campaign, and can deploy so little in the way of AD, I might be tempted to edit the mission files, although I would hate to have to do so. Can you edit campaign mission files or are they locked?

Edited February 23, 2015 by Bahger

[slysniper]

Spread and run, take cover and concealment anyway you can. That is about all you can do.

 

Or continue on with your task and see what happens. ( i just did that in a campaign mission) figuring I see many friendlies burning shortly. Only lost one or two friendlies. But was really glad to see the enemy air hit one of their own dug in units and dislog it for me. It was so kind of them to help me out in a area I did not have the forces to do it for myself.

[agusto]

Can you edit campaign mission files or are they locked?

 

I think there is a way to "decompile" campaigns (i conclude this from all the CMSF campaign missions beeing available as stand-alone scenarios at the Repository) but i dont know how it is done. Try opening the campaign files with a text editor (i recommend ultra edit 32 because it is an all in one Hex/text editor) and see if you find anything meaningful. Maybe you just need to do some copy+paste and it is done!

Edited February 23, 2015 by agusto

[A Canadian Cat]

Trees have a certain chance of stopping incoming heli borne ATGMs and 30mm rounds. Also i believe that trees affect the spotting capabilities of all airborne units, given the effect that trees have on the spotting capabilities of UAVs.

 

Yep. I am playing a scenario now where my Grey Eagel spotted a Russian BMP and I switched it to attack mode and it could not complete the mission because the BMP was in the trees. Trees help. They are not a guarantee but they can help.

Has anyone devised any tactics to minimize their losses from Russian air assets? Do I just drive all my vehicles in the the trees when I hear sound effects that suggest there is about the be an air attack?

Yes, see above

Maybe pop smoke?

That might help but which way would you pop smoke. You can be surprised by CAS missiles coming form all kinds of directions.

[A Canadian Cat]

I think there is a way to "decompile" campaigns

The latest version of this tool seems to still work with CMBS: http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/5426/details

I have done only cursory testing so there could be a hidden issue.

[Philipp]

Enemy air support, again, same as artillery, can very frustrating if you are at the receiving end. But it is part of the game. Well placed indirect fire can ruin your day, make sure you ruin the other guys day first.

I have to say that I lost a lot more troops to mortars than to helos or planes. In some cases then that means to count your losses and ceasefire. In other cases it makes the battle more of a chellange and it can be very satisfying to pull off a minor victory despite first platoon lying dead in a field full of craters.

[Skwabie]

I think there is a way to "decompile" campaigns (i conclude this from all the CMSF campaign missions beeing available as stand-alone scenarios at the Repository) but i dont know how it is done. Try opening the campaign files with a text editor (i recommend ultra edit 32 because it is an all in one Hex/text editor) and see if you find anything meaningful. Maybe you just need to do some copy+paste and it is done!

Yeah Mad Mike's tool is really handy for that.

However, how to put it back into a campaign after you've done the editing on the individual scenarios, is more.. interesting.

[Apocal]

 

This was touched on a bit in the topic "US Anti Aircraft defences", but that thread is mostly people discussing how the scenario would play out in the real world. While interesting, I'm really looking for ideas about how to handle the situation in the game.

 

Really, I just hunker down, let it expend its ordnance then dash out and do whatever I was going to do, along with maybe throwing down smokescreens. I haven't lost anything in a screen yet, but I haven't gone through very many iterations either.

[dstal]

CAS and ADA can be frustrating at first, but after playing many different battles I've found that a lot of the time it all just comes down to luck. 

 

Sometimes your ADA will be effective and sometimes it won't.  Sometimes the enemy CAS will wreak havoc on your vehicles and sometimes it'll be lucky to get a single hit. 

 

Enemy ADA plays under the same rules, so sometimes it'll manage to take out your CAS on the first try and other times it'll be entirely ineffective and your CAS will be free to wreak havoc on the enemy.

 

Hiding under tree cover hasn't seemed to help much in my experience, but I guess there's a small chance the ordance will impact a tree instead of its target.  If anything, it seems like Trophy APS equipped vehicles moving across open ground have had a better chance surviving CAS in my games.

[agusto]

Thankls for the tip with the tools IanL.

 

However, how to put it back into a campaign after you've done the editing on the individual scenarios, is more.. interesting.

 

Really? I cant imagine it to be that much of a problem. Just put them togather the way you would do with every campaign.

Edited February 24, 2015 by agusto

[Skwabie]

@agusto, you don't have the core file. so the normal way is... out.

[Frederico]

^{I used smoke and trees in Objective Delta with some degree of success. I previously placed most of my vehicles in the trees and when I heard air overhead I would pop smoke and slow move into the smoke. This seemed to help as long as the smoke was active, but the air just seemed to linger until the smoke cleared. Still lost a few vehicles. (This was on my 4th effort at this scenario.) I think it has been proven in the last 100 years of war that control of the air can make it pretty tough on an adversary. I agree with Skwabie: "Grab that air force Lieutenant by the collars, fill yourself with rage and yell at him: "I want air support now!!!!"}

[A Canadian Cat]

@agusto, you don't have the core file. so the normal way is... out.

I have never built a campaign much less reassembled one but is the core file really part of that process? I thought as you create each individual scenario you import the core file and edit the Order of Battle and then assembled all the scenarios together. Do you also have to have the core file at assembly time? Goes to read the manual...

[Skwabie]

IanL yes.... Assembly within CM goes like load core file, load script, then CM compiles.

The core file also determines the core units' properties like fatigue, experience etc. Changing these within individual scenarios has no effect (found this by in-game testing), so in total core file is rather important.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Skwabie

[A Canadian Cat]

Yep there ya go. pp 112 of version 3.01 of the manual. You have to start the whole thing off with the core units file loaded. Bummer.

[A Canadian Cat]

I imagine you could reverse engineer what the core file looked like but then you would probably need to crack open every scenario and delete the copies of the core file units in that scenario and import them again and then hook them all back up the right way to each AI group, reinforcement and victory condition etc. to maintain the connection between the units in the scenarios and the core units.

[Skwabie]

eheh yep tried to do it (but oh reverse engineer sounds so shady). It's even more tedious than that, I'd probably lose my day job if going for it. But Pete Wenman was nice enough to provide me with the core file for Blunting the Spear. So it never hurts to... well have faith and ask. But it still takes a lotta time so I was putting it on hold.

Seriously BFC should at least consider some form of compensation for the scenario authors. It's at least a part-time job level load. But going OT and I digress..