Still horrible user interface keeps on developing

[Fizou]

I don't think the UI is that bad at all. Though quite often I'm bemused at peoples complaints about a games UI, most of the time I don't have a problem with it or even thought of it as an issue.

+1 . A lot of people dont want to learn something new (or are to looked into a patern) and I think thats what it comes down to in this case.

[Skwabie]

+1 . A lot of people dont want to learn something new (or are to looked into a patern) and I think thats what it comes down to in this case.

True, that and this is a game. If playing CM were a job, ppl are sure likely to give it more effort... Not that I have much problem with the UI myself, but I find some complaints understandable.

[womble]

+1 . A lot of people dont want to learn something new (or are to looked into a patern) and I think thats what it comes down to in this case.

Having to learn a new interface isn't a Good Thing. That's why all the productivity software has tended to look and feel more and more similar over the years: if a company has to retrain its people it's less likely to place a thousand-unit order for the software. I spend enough hours on CM games to be instinctively using the conventions of the game when I eventually come up for air and have to use "normal" (y'know, "follows industry conventions") software, and the fact that they never work is evidence enough that BFC are the ones out of step.

Sure, there are "reasons" (which I think are actually "justifications") for it being the way it is, and it's getting better. But anyone who thought the now-deprecated "relative" commands were a good idea needs their bumps feeling. And that's the base level of interface design insight which the game is thankfully moving away from.

I think the people who don't think the interface has ever caused them problems have memory issues.

[womble]

Steve once mentioned an episode of the Simpsons where Homer was hired as a consultant to design a new car. He included every wish list feature he could dream up to produce the 'ultimate' car. A car that turned out to be a monstrosity that nobody wanted to buy.

That analogy had holes in it the size of that car to start with and hasn't gotten any better with age. We want a car with a radio; CM is a Dacia. A Dacia all-terrain vehicle with its pedals, indicator stalks and wiper stalks swapped round and a heater that's either on full blast or off. That can go anywhere. I can learn that my left foot is the loud pedal, but expect me to crash while I'm getting used to it and then again when I get back into a normal car. Even Land Rovers can come with radios these days.

[FroBodine]

I like the interface, and have no problems with it. I just wish there were tooltips for all the icons in the info boxes.

[Lt Belenko]

Steve once mentioned an episode of the Simpsons where Homer was hired as a consultant to design a new car. He included every wish list feature he could dream up to produce the 'ultimate' car. A car that turned out to be a monstrosity that nobody wanted to buy.

Danny DeVito was Homer's long lost brother. Good episode. So what's your point?

[Barkhorn1x]

GUI is "horrible"? Come on man that's extreme.

Why not to do something for the interface?

Larger scenes are really pain in the ***. Many of my friends have really liked the idea behind CM, but the GUI really turned them all away from this so really great game.

Many friends eh? Well I feel bad for the both of you and suggest you put a tad bit of effort into learning the UI before rendering your sweeping judgements.

[womble]

GUI is "horrible"? Come on man that's extreme.

Give the man some credit for working in a foreign language.

"Flawed"

"Idiosyncratic"

"sometimes ill-conceived".

I think "bad" is the nearest I'd come to those sentiments in any other language.

[LukeFF]

Yes! Tooltips is probably the biggest UI standard that is absent from the CM games. I don't understand why they haven't added them after so long.

Agreed

...

[Battlefront.com]

That analogy had holes in it the size of that car to start with and hasn't gotten any better with age. We want a car with a radio; CM is a Dacia. A Dacia all-terrain vehicle with its pedals, indicator stalks and wiper stalks swapped round and a heater that's either on full blast or off. That can go anywhere. I can learn that my left foot is the loud pedal, but expect me to crash while I'm getting used to it and then again when I get back into a normal car. Even Land Rovers can come with radios these days.

The point of the Simpson episode reference is that every single one of you guys thinks you know how to make a perfect UI for this particular game. But if left in charge of the UI design it is extremely doubtful that you'd come up with anything that is overall better. And that's if you were kept on a short creative leash, had 8 years of gameplay hindsight, and a big budget. If you were given a fresh game concept, no hindsight, and a modest budget I'm not sure the result would be even as good a the original CMSF UI was.

I know that most gamers think they can make a better game than successful game developers, just as most movie and TV viewers think they can make better movies and TV shows than successful movie and TV producers (I "know" I could run circles around JJ Abrams ) Out of the few who try, most fail because they don't have what it takes. Just a hunch which anybody is welcome to disprove by making their own ground breaking game

For sure we got some design elements wrong. The relative key concept was good in theory, but because CM has so many Commands it did not work well in reality. We realized that a long time ago and have been doing nothing to reinforce it. Instead, we've been moving away from it over time. As unbelievable as it might sound, you guys have demanded thousands of things from us over the years and you have claimed they should all be in the game already. And that means that we can not afford to focus on fixing/improving any one particular part of the game. You guys would punish us very hard if we did that.

And then there's the other side of the coin...

The UI is not as bad as the worst of the critics claim it is. Many customers, including some in this thread, have said they don't have a problem with the UI. And that's not surprising because if I got 10 Wargamers together and asked them a single yes/no question I'd get about 543 answers. Most of them in conflict with each other, even when coming from the same person. You are, if nothing else, a predictable lot.

So we have a situation where CM doesn't have any single thing done perfectly. The degree in which an individual rates any one specific element ranges dramatically. The important thing is that customers find the total package to their liking. And as much as the complainers go on and on and on about something... they are here going on and on and on about it. That tells us all we need to know and then some

Steve

[Erik Springelkamp]

....

Steve

:):)

(actually 1 smiley was enough, but not for the forum software, and 8 were too many)

[Battlefront.com]

To reiterate...

Each release has a number of UI improvements. Some have been requested since CMBO days, some since CMSF, some more recently. We try very hard to incorporate the features people seem to want/need most as opposed to those which aren't fundamentally necessary or are potentially harmful. It's not worth spending our limited development time on stuff that most people will disable or complain about. Obviously it's a judgement call as to which ones are what, but that's why we are here.

UI improvements are kept in balance with other aspects of the game. Especially those which are central to gameplay. Keep in mind that UI improvements can only enhance what the game already does. It is incapable of offering anything new. For example, having tank riders or flamethrowers. If we put it to a vote, I'm sure the vast majority of customers would rather us spend time on adding flamethrowers than mouse tool tips.

Development priorities suck for us as much as they do for you. Just be thankful we're obviously quite good at it. Otherwise you'd not be here and we'd be making Pokemon games for iPads. You know, stuff that could actually make us some real money

Steve

[sfhand]

I feel extremely fortunate... I like the interface! I didn't like the transition from CMx1 to CMSF in part because the camera controls didn't seem smooth in comparison, which is as close as I've come to not liking the interface (and that was fixed a while back). Btw, I never used the relative keys, it was always easier just to click the tabs, in fact, I usually don't use many keyboard commands.

So I am for keeping the interface as is and putting the programming hours into refining the fidelity of the game.

[bangalor44]

I'm new here my 2nd post, but i've played almost every war game i could find starting with avalon hills gettysburg.What i'm trying to say is this is without a doubt the very best tactical simulation of ww2 on the market hands down,i've tried alot of others.I think it is for more serious wargamers,its not call of duty.The ui may have little quirks here and there but for the options i can perform with it not so bad.Thanks for creating a great game in my little opinon.Troops as you were.

[togi]

Hello Steve ,

My request as a customer that is only to be made UI more readable on big resolutions such as 1920 x 1080 or more, if it's possible off course :-)

Thanks

[Collingwood]

... Otherwise you'd not be here and we'd be making Pokemon games for iPads. You know, stuff that could actually make us some real money

In fact given the ever increasing number of app developers for iOS fighting over the money pie, the vast majority don't make a living wage. For every angry birds success there are thousands that fail.

Sorry to say, you will have to stick to CM if you want to make money

[Bulletpoint]

Give the man some credit for working in a foreign language.

"Flawed"

"Idiosyncratic"

"sometimes ill-conceived".

I think "bad" is the nearest I'd come to those sentiments in any other language.

True, the interface can be discombobulating at times The manual could be better as well.

But isn't that what drives people to Google for answers, eventually ending up here, bolstering the community?

[mjkerner]

I know that most gamers think they can make a better game than successful game developers, just as most movie and TV viewers think they can make better movies and TV shows than successful movie and TV producers (I "know" I could run circles around JJ Abrams.)

Steve

Not fair...he's an easy target!

I have an advantage here, because I never played CMx1 games, so I don't notice any difference. I played il2 and it's many addons and modules for about 8 years straight, then jumped into CMSF in 2008. I haven't played hardly anything else except a brief foray into CoD and Silent Hunter. So again, I have little to compare against CMx2. But I've never found any problem with the UI, except that cursor-at-edge-of-screen thing. Camera controls in general are great, and the addition in MG/GL? of the Spacebar putting the Commands up on the screen was a nice touch.

I tried out both of the new options in CMRT testing, and didn't see the need to change from the old way, although I'm sure many here will really like those options.

There are plenty of good ideas here that I hope someday make it into the game, like editor map scrolling, click on any Move command line to select the unit, etc., but I use a multi-button mouse and just don't see any real problems. I know there are some, or else people wouldn't complain, but I really don't know what they are. Does it have to do with the keyboard commands, or the mouse/camera controls, or both?

[Baneman]

Personally, after playing CMx1 for many years, I got so used to the commands that I just remapped the hotkeys to those ( why were they ever changed ? ) and tap whatever keyboard key I need using the mouse to place it.

I barely even think about it and only ever click on the UI for those I have specifically UN-mapped eg. Bail-out

[noxnoctum]

My biggest issue with the UI is not being able to move waypoints by clicking on the lines (forcing you to go back and find the unit itself before issuing new orders) . With that added functionality it would be a lot easier to control stuff in bigger scenarios.

[Bradley]

Wow. I like the UI fine. I can do what I need to do it works great. Initially the camera took some getting used to (but I was more accustomed to 2D top down) but it is so intuitive and easy to work with now wouldn't want to change it.

[Andrew H.]

I've played CM long enough that I don't have a particular issue with the UI, and one can learn any arbitrary system with enough practice, but the relative key system did take some getting used to when it came out, compared to just clicking on a unit and then hitting "q" for quick or "f" for fire or "s" for slow (or whatever the original commands were).

But given the number of commands, that's probably not workable - and maybe at some point there is something easier than just a large number of hotkeys.

Having said that, at least the UI doesn't interfere with us getting new commands.

[Michael Emrys]

Just being allowed to turn off screen edge scrolling would be nice.

Simple industry standard shortcut keys like CTRL-S (or even near-standard, like ALT-S) for "Save" (surely you save at least as often as you Quit...).

Scroll bars in the pre-game UI. Scroll bars in the unit infor pane.

One more digit in the ammo count for the unit info pane.

All excellent suggestions.

The "Compass-that-is-not-a-compass-but-looks-a-bit-like-one". Yes there are mods for it, but why is it even necessary to apply a mod to a basic element of the UI to get it to work like you'd intuitively expect it to?

That one threw me at first, but once I figured out how it actually works within the game I saw that it was actually a very logical way to function. I'm not at all sure that I'd want to see it change.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Hotkeys for the replay controls would be nice, too.

Another good idea that might solve the accidental hitting of the Go button problem right there.

Michael

[Destraex1]

So we have two kinds of people on average (a bit of tongue in cheek here

(i) CMx1\2 vets who don't play much in the way of other games and love the interface as they don't know what they are missing

(ii) People who have played many games and are used to windows and the way it works that expect standards to be adhered to where possible.

Where I fit:

(iii) People who run 1920x1200 and cannot see the briefing or gui icons properly.

Now I am wondering who plays real time and who plays WEGO as I found this had a HUGE impact on my hatred of the interface. WEGO gives me the time I need to deal with it.