Still horrible user interface keeps on developing

[mjkerner]

Heh-heh...I'm in category (i), and am WEGO-er. The funny thing is, I played CMSF exclusively in RT, and IIRC, the UI was more of a problem. I really hated WEGO back then, but with the WWII releases, I just needed my turn-by-turn War Movie fix. Now I couldn't go back.

[altipueri]

Personally, after playing CMx1 for many years, I got so used to the commands that I just remapped the hotkeys to those ( why were they ever changed ? ) and tap whatever keyboard key I need using the mouse to place it.

I barely even think about it and only ever click on the UI for those I have specifically UN-mapped eg. Bail-out

Does this get right click to bring up move options?

[womble]

Steve: I love your games in spite of the interface. Yes it's getting better, and salutations for that. While existing players will only salivate when you ring the "new features" bell, for a new player, your existing features are all new, and the interface gets in the way of them finding those spiffy things accessible. It doesn't stop the determined, but it can't help growth. You have a market leading product. Hell, it's the only product in its class. Hopefully the UI will improve enough to make it accessible enough to grow the market base once you reach saturation on the current users.

[Wodin]

I play loads of games and gaming since '84..and I find the UI fine.

So we have two kinds of people on average (a bit of tongue in cheek here

(i) CMx1\2 vets who don't play much in the way of other games and love the interface as they don't know what they are missing

(ii) People who have played many games and are used to windows and the way it works that expect standards to be adhered to where possible.

Where I fit:

(iii) People who run 1920x1200 and cannot see the briefing or gui icons properly.

Now I am wondering who plays real time and who plays WEGO as I found this had a HUGE impact on my hatred of the interface. WEGO gives me the time I need to deal with it.

[Battlefront.com]

Steve: I love your games in spite of the interface. Yes it's getting better, and salutations for that. While existing players will only salivate when you ring the "new features" bell, for a new player, your existing features are all new, and the interface gets in the way of them finding those spiffy things accessible. It doesn't stop the determined, but it can't help growth. You have a market leading product. Hell, it's the only product in its class. Hopefully the UI will improve enough to make it accessible enough to grow the market base once you reach saturation on the current users.

The base won't grow because of better UI. It will grow only if we dumb down the gameplay and increase the bling. Sorry, I wish it could be otherwise but that's the reality we live in. CM is in a niche market for reasons that have nothing to do with the UI.

With that in mind, it is more important for the game's UI to function well within CM's own unique paradigm than it does to work not-well but be familiar to non potential CM players.

For sure there are areas where it doesn't have to be a choice. Some places we can offer more than one way, in some places we can change things to make more happier without alienating the rest. Those are the sorts of things we are working on addressing. But at the end of the day, CM's UI will retain things that people don't like. All games have them. And here's an example why...

You complained about the "compass that isn't a compass" because it doesn't work the way you expect it to outside of CM. But it's the way it is for very good reasons, which is not lost on all players. Dare I quote Emrys and let it go to his head? Yes, I dare!

That one threw me at first, but once I figured out how it actually works within the game I saw that it was actually a very logical way to function. I'm not at all sure that I'd want to see it change.

This is what I mean by there's no one right answer for a lot of UI elements, though individuals fool themselves into thinking that there is. And oddly enough, it's exactly the way they picture it being. Funny how the two go hand in hand, isn't it?

Steve

[Apocal]

The base won't grow because of better UI. It will grow only if we dumb down the gameplay and increase the bling. Sorry, I wish it could be otherwise but that's the reality we live in. CM is in a niche market for reasons that have nothing to do with the UI.

With that in mind, it is more important for the game's UI to function well within CM's own unique paradigm than it does to work not-well but be familiar to non potential CM players.

For sure there are areas where it doesn't have to be a choice. Some places we can offer more than one way, in some places we can change things to make more happier without alienating the rest. Those are the sorts of things we are working on addressing. But at the end of the day, CM's UI will retain things that people don't like. All games have them. And here's an example why...

You complained about the "compass that isn't a compass" because it doesn't work the way you expect it to outside of CM. But it's the way it is for very good reasons, which is not lost on all players. Dare I quote Emrys and let it go to his head? Yes, I dare!

This is what I mean by there's no one right answer for a lot of UI elements, though individuals fool themselves into thinking that there is. And oddly enough, it's exactly the way they picture it being. Funny how the two go hand in hand, isn't it?

Steve

It would be nice if the player's minefields were a tad more visible than no-icon signpost they are currently when you finish setup.

[poesel]

You complained about the "compass that isn't a compass" because it doesn't work the way you expect it to outside of CM. But it's the way it is for very good reasons, which is not lost on all players.

A compass is a compass is a compass. It exists in the real world and in the UI it looks like a compass. So its fair to assume that it should be working like a compass. If it doesn't it shouldn't look like one.

I seem to have failed to see the advantage of this UI element. Every time I look at it (which is fortunately not often) I have to consciously think about how it works.

[FroBodine]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, what is wrong with the in-game compass? It points in the direction that the camera is looking. Is it because it does not always point north that people don't like?

I like that it shows me what direction I am looking.

What that said, is there a mod that makes it act like a true compass? If so, what is the mod called, please?

[LUCASWILLEN05]

The base won't grow because of better UI. It will grow only if we dumb down the gameplay and increase the bling. Sorry, I wish it could be otherwise but that's the reality we live in. CM is in a niche market for reasons that have nothing to do with the UI.

With that in mind, it is more important for the game's UI to function well within CM's own unique paradigm than it does to work not-well but be familiar to non potential CM players.

For sure there are areas where it doesn't have to be a choice. Some places we can offer more than one way, in some places we can change things to make more happier without alienating the rest. Those are the sorts of things we are working on addressing. But at the end of the day, CM's UI will retain things that people don't like. All games have them. And here's an example why...

You complained about the "compass that isn't a compass" because it doesn't work the way you expect it to outside of CM. But it's the way it is for very good reasons, which is not lost on all players. Dare I quote Emrys and let it go to his head? Yes, I dare!

This is what I mean by there's no one right answer for a lot of UI elements, though individuals fool themselves into thinking that there is. And oddly enough, it's exactly the way they picture it being. Funny how the two go hand in hand, isn't it?

Steve

And if BF did that I suspect they would lose those of us who like realistic WW2 gameplay (without the blood and guts- there are limits) I want to feel that I am performing the role of a small battlegroup commander against a realistic opponent (or at least as realistic as the AI can get anyway)

That.s why IMHO this is a great game and some of the best selling games, well, aren't. And that is why BF get my money!

[womble]

The base won't grow because of better UI.

Apart from the people that have looked at the UI and walked away from it, like I did when I first tried the SF interface. It's better now than it was back then, but poor interface design certinly lost you a Shock Force sale, and only the draw of WW2 persuaded me to make the effort to find out how to live with the BN 1.0-era interface.

It will grow only if we dumb down the gameplay and increase the bling. Sorry, I wish it could be otherwise but that's the reality we live in. CM is in a niche market for reasons that have nothing to do with the UI.

Yes, of course you're right. CM is a niche product and it isn't the UI that makes it so (that would be wierd - a niche defined by interface; I suppose it's one of the things that divides the Apple and formerly-IBM communities, but most other niches have different delimiters), but that niche is bigger than you currently occupy. Of course you're free to discount any anecdotal evidence that the UI puts off otherwise good customers, that's your perogative.

With that in mind, it is more important for the game's UI to function well within CM's own unique paradigm than it does to work not-well but be familiar to non potential CM players.

What has that got to do with things that would just make the interface work better? There's nothing special about the navigation of the pre-game menus; that's bog-standard WIMPy stuff. Inside the actual playing field, there have to be compromises to accommodate the metaphor.

You complained about the "compass that isn't a compass" because it doesn't work the way you expect it to outside of CM. But it's the way it is for very good reasons, which is not lost on all players.

Well, they're lost on me; I'd love to be enlightened.

This is what I mean by there's no one right answer for a lot of UI elements...

There's no one wrong answer, either. Just because 'even Emrys' could figure it out, doesn't mean that having to figure it out in the first place was a Good Thing.

I didn't express myself very clearly with the "compass" thing: what is in the game isn't a compass (though it looks like one initially). And actually you don't really want a compass, because a compass tells you where North is, which then requires some neurons to fire to tell you which way you're looking which is what you want to know most of the time. And intuitively, you're looking "up" the screen: stuff that is further away is higher up the screen (generally). So being told you're looking left when you're looking West is unintuitive and has to be worked out. Every time you check which way the wind is blowing, or where the enemy are supposed to be approaching from, which isn't often enough to make it second nature, but is, IME, often enough to make me ask, "Isn't there a better way?" every time.

[phil stanbridge]

The GUI is a tiny part of the game. It really is pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. It give you the details you need and it is clear and accessible. If you want a different GUI then I'm sure Juju's will please in due course.

[Mr. Yubby]

As far as the UI issue with 1600 x 1200 desktop resolution goes, your monitor and display adapter must support the 4:3 aspect ratio used with 1600 x 1200 resolution, or distortion will occur. If the aspect ratio is adjustable with your video card, set it to 1600 x 1200, 4:3 aspect ratio and this should improve the UI issues you're seeing. I have a wide-screen Viewsonic monitor which supports 1920 x 1080 (1080p) and the GUI displays properly on my setup, using "desktop" resolution in the CM video setup screen. On the other hand 1600 x 1200 looks horrible on my display, even with 4:3 aspect ratio.

I was an early adopter of CMSF and I remember the initial learning curve/aggravations with the CMSF UI (some of which were fixed in patches). Now that I've had time to fully assimilate the CMx2 UI, the fundamental design seems logical IMHO. please don't change it. Besides, the various UI modes are explained in good detail in the manual. With such complex game, one should expect complexity in the menu system. If you have a programmable keyboard, you can create keyboard macros for functions in the game that require multiple mouse clicks, which can streamline game play.

[Wodin]

WEGO and as I said no issue with the UI..maybe it is something that RT players have a issue with..

[LJFHutch]

I find the GUI is usually pretty good.

The only thing that bothers me is the camera controls which aren't very smooth; moving the view with arrow keys or using the mouse to rotate the camera.

[Vet 0369]

My biggest issue with the UI is not being able to move waypoints by clicking on the lines (forcing you to go back and find the unit itself before issuing new orders) . With that added functionality it would be a lot easier to control stuff in bigger scenarios.

The only time I've had any problem selecting the "lines" is when I'm zoomed out too far in "God" view and can't select the path. I consistently use clicking on the path line to highlight the end point and move it; either an intermediate point or an end point.

[Destraex1]

As far as the UI issue with 1600 x 1200 desktop resolution goes, your monitor and display adapter must support the 4:3 aspect ratio used with 1600 x 1200 resolution, or distortion will occur. If the aspect ratio is adjustable with your video card, set it to 1600 x 1200, 4:3 aspect ratio and this should improve the UI issues you're seeing. I have a wide-screen Viewsonic monitor which supports 1920 x 1080 (1080p) and the GUI displays properly on my setup, using "desktop" resolution in the CM video setup screen. On the other hand 1600 x 1200 looks horrible on my display, even with 4:3 aspect ratio.

I was an early adopter of CMSF and I remember the initial learning curve/aggravations with the CMSF UI (some of which were fixed in patches). Now that I've had time to fully assimilate the CMx2 UI, the fundamental design seems logical IMHO. please don't change it. Besides, the various UI modes are explained in good detail in the manual. With such complex game, one should expect complexity in the menu system. If you have a programmable keyboard, you can create keyboard macros for functions in the game that require multiple mouse clicks, which can streamline game play.

So you get full screen briefings?

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks for the feedback. We definitely see areas for improvement, but we also don't believe the UI is seriously "off the mark" as some say. While we are definitely trying to adopt more standards (there were few when we started, BTW) when they make sense, they often do not make sense for CM and therefore are to be avoided.

For those who have issues with the camera controls, try out the new FPS or RTS controls and see if you like them better. I have personally switched over the FPS controls because for RT play I think they suit my play style a little bit better than the Standard set. Though I didn't have problems with the Standard and sometime do miss it. But life is all about accepting compromise

Steve

[MG TOW]

Hey guys tell me if I'm the only one doing this cause it drives me. This is a habit from playing certain other games that may look a little like the cm series I often forget to Right Click to release command of a unit before clicking on the next unit. Why? because clicking on another unit should automatically release the previous unit. Xept it don't. You get a new waypoint instead.

I would not want to see anything changed, because why should everybody else have to get used to a new release method for me. But it sure would be sweet to have a new option in customization setup menu to have release on next unit selection yes/no, or right click to release unit yes/no.

[glitch]

For those who have issues with the camera controls, try out the new FPS or RTS controls and see if you like them better.

Edit: Nevermind, found the answer I was looking for

[Ssnake51]

My only gripe with the UI is the way text is displayed. I'd love to be able to play this game at my desktop resolution of 2560 x 1600 but there is no way I can read comfortably anything in the UI. Sure I can reduce the resolution to 1920 x 1200 but even though text is then readable it is slightly blurry.

Other games do a good job of scaling text with higher resolutions. Wish that could be done here.

[db_zero]

I don't mind the UI and not sure what could be radically changed give the complexity. I like the new design in RT.

Maybe have it so you can move the whole command box screen around to the top or sides?

Is anyone playing this on a hi-def 40-70 inch lcd/led TV?

I'm on a dual monitor 24 inch monitor and 5.1 surround sound system. They have some cheap 27 inch monitors out, but don't rally think that's going to make a significant difference.

[Frankster65]

I consider the UI to be one of the best out there. I actually use CMx2's UI as the standard. I like Graviteam's Operation Star game but hate it's UI.

[Mr. Yubby]

So you get full screen briefings?

Not necessarily, as I mentioned, 1600 x 1200 can have issues with wide-screen monitors, even when aspect ratio is set correctly in the video driver control panel. At least that has been my experience. My previous monitor was a high-resolution CRT and it ran CMSF @ 1600x1200 resolution, including briefings, with no distortion. There's quite a few variables involved, so your mileage may vary. :-)

[acrashb]

It is a perpetual problem for CM.

Some reading that you may find inspiring (I use it for development design teams with great results):

The Design of Everyday Things: Revised and Expanded Edition

[Sailor Malan2]

... I often forget to Right Click to release command of a unit before clicking on the next unit. Why? because clicking on another unit should automatically release the previous unit. Xept it don't. You get a new waypoint instead.

I would not want to see anything changed, because why should everybody else have to get used to a new release method for me. But it sure would be sweet to have a new option in customization setup menu to have release on next unit selection yes/no, or right click to release unit yes/no.

How would I move a unit to the same spot as another, if pointing at a unit released the first one rather than placed a way point? I do the unit shuffle quite a lot...