Tea Time. Beta AAR discussion threat. Not for Bill or Elvis ;-)

[womble]

@ womble

Sorry, I just read your post.

Was placing mines at BLAU not an option? If so, then this is one of the limitations of the game during the set-up phase and should be corrected. (As if the "deck" weren't already stacked against the defender).

I've no idea... I wasn't really commenting on this battle in particular, at least in my head, more responding to Ser Kettler's points on the perceived underlethality of AP mines and Cymru's ponderings on the potential restrictions on mine usage depending on context.

I know for sure that you can't, in a QB, place mines outside your own deployment area. I can't get a good handle from Elvis's pics of his deployment zones, on how deep an area there is to use in front of Blau. And I've lost all sense of what direction Bil is coming from, I'm afraid, so whether some to defend Blau's flanks would have been useful, I can't think. He could have put mines in and about Blau, I believe. Just not sure how far away he could place them to interdict tanks shooting at the buildings; a row of AP mines migh'tve given Bil's SMGers pause... We've not seen what happens to riders when a Bouncing Betty pops up from under a tread and explodes at sitting-groin-height a metre behind the rear deck of a tank covered in squishy meat... But that woudn't be terribly useful if the ISUs have reduced the village to smoking ruins salted with dead Landser.

[Michael Emrys]

I know for sure that you can't, in a QB, place mines outside your own deployment area. I can't get a good handle from Elvis's pics of his deployment zones, on how deep an area there is to use in front of Blau.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1497439&postcount=89

Don't know if you have looked at this recently, but I thought I would dig it up. I can't say precisely from the screenshots just how deeply the setup zone extends in front of BLAU or how usefully it would serve as a potential minefield. One wishes one had the map available to load into the game so as to be able to examine it from all angles and heights at one's leisure.

Michael

[Wicky]

Here's a screenshot from Elvis's thread showing what appears to be his set up zone covering what appears to be half the map up to and including just in front of Blau.

Elvis set up zone from his perspective

Map Overview

Time for Elvis to deploy the tactical nukes...

[c3k]

Bil has now sliced Elvis' defence forces into separate splinters. That's generally a sign of impending doom.

[Dadekster]

This thread has turned into my collective thoughts thread so bear with me.

I don't mind mines as long as the map is big enough that you have options to go around them or you are given the time to deal with them if you have CE's. I think mines along with the new scripting options will make for some very interesting scenarios if people chose to do them.

I think Elvis has done a pretty good job given the forces he had versus what was arrayed against him. Maybe his force selection could have been better given the terrain (but remember he was restricted in some things) and maybe he could have deployed his guys different or used different tactics. I try and remember that once you are in the drivers seat that being the commander is a lot different than being the guy watching what unfolds. I think everyone in here understands that though. For the most part I think this AAR reflects very well what was happening historically and the fat lady hasn't quite yet begun to sing. Having to react to multiple threats from different directions is not good though either tactically or operationally.

One of the few things that bothered me reading Bil's latest turns is his command of armor. Now this delves a bit into the whole God-commander/doctrine/how good where the Russians at this time period debate. Essentially it drives me bonkers to see several tanks coordinating so well so quickly (60s) to react to a threat. I understand that this is a game but after seeing how hard it is to do in RL with modern units it just makes me shake my head in disbelief.

[wadepm]

What setting are they using? Warrior or something higher?

[Skwabie]

One of the few things that bothered me reading Bil's latest turns is his command of armor. Now this delves a bit into the whole God-commander/doctrine/how good where the Russians at this time period debate. Essentially it drives me bonkers to see several tanks coordinating so well so quickly (60s) to react to a threat. I understand that this is a game but after seeing how hard it is to do in RL with modern units it just makes me shake my head in disbelief.

Well because it ain't the Russians, it's Bil.....

[womble]

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1497439&postcount=89

Don't know if you have looked at this recently, but I thought I would dig it up.

Yeah, I ploughed through til I found that one.

I can't say precisely from the screenshots just how deeply the setup zone extends in front of BLAU or how usefully it would serve as a potential minefield.

Indeed. I'd guess that there's enough room for "enough" mines to encourage infantry not to assault into Blau, but not enough room for all the mines in the world to keep assault guns from heaving their bulk into position to bring the house(s) down.

One wishes one had the map available to load into the game so as to be able to examine it from all angles and heights at one's leisure.

Ah, but were that the case, would we actually care any more, what with having the game proper to engage us...?

Here's a screenshot from Elvis's thread showing what appears to be his set up zone covering what appears to be half the map up to and including just in front of Blau.

Yeah. It's such a long map though that the far end is foreshortened.

[Michael Emrys]

...try and remember that once you are in the drivers seat that being the commander is a lot different than being the guy watching what unfolds.

Absolutely. I may be ruthless in pointing out the players' mistakes, because that is one of the main reasons for this thread, but I am also fully mindful of the fact that they are certainly making fewer mistakes than I would in the same situation. Trying to play a demanding game with perhaps hundreds of people kibitzing while at the same time preparing and posting screenshots and narrative...man, you couldn't pay me enough! And they, presumably are doing it for free.

Michael

[John Kettler]

Michael Emrys,

You are correct. We're not charging for our kibitzing!

All,

On a more serious note, I agreee that Elvis is in trouble. Trouble compounded by what seem like German grade microtactics. Turns out, though, that they actually did such things. You can see them to some extent in that OT-34 commander's memoirs I linked to in the Eastern Literature thread, but online readable segments of Panzer Destroyer reveal such matters in greater detail, back when that author commanded a KV-1 platoon. "Yuri! Antitank gun under tree by the fence. Destroy it." "Sergei, enemy tank emerging from behind the barn. Wait until he exposes his flank, then shoot." That kind of thing. (Now, I really want that book)!

Having said the above, these forces had everyone in the same area attacking, with the tanks clearly visible to each other. What they weren't doing was operating on multiple axes in symphonic level coordination. This is where Bil kills the opposition (insert Carly Simon song from Bond movie; other was inadvertent pun). In a word, he orchestrates combat power in ways a modern commander would envy, but war isn't like that. Certainly not then.

Am not at all sure how to do it, but I believe BFC needs to introduce Clausewitzian friction into some gamers' Swiss chronometer precise combat. I know CMx1 used Fuzzy Logic to represent all sorts of things in the game. If Fuzzy Logic's not in this game, maybe it needs to be. Otherwise Mentat/super brain Bil and others like him are likely to sweep all before them, simply because their ability to plan and execute far exceeds historical reality and capability. If, as Steve's publicy stated, CM is all about realism, seems there's a rather unrealistic element to the game which, methinks, needs looking into.

Regards,

John Kettler

[folkie]

(I'm an Eagles season ticket holder and they play that scene before every opening kickoff.)

fly eagles fly, on the road to victory!

elvis, also an eagles fan.. apologise for the off topic comment. and now back to our original programming : )

[Battlefront.com]

One of the few things that bothered me reading Bil's latest turns is his command of armor. Now this delves a bit into the whole God-commander/doctrine/how good where the Russians at this time period debate. Essentially it drives me bonkers to see several tanks coordinating so well so quickly (60s) to react to a threat. I understand that this is a game but after seeing how hard it is to do in RL with modern units it just makes me shake my head in disbelief.

Yup, this is one of the unsolvable problems CM has because it's a game. The improvement over CMx1 is that back then Bil's T-34s could have targeted the Hetzer directly even if they hadn't spotted it. There's a huge difference between lobbing some area fire and actually targeting. So score one for the game designers

Still, fundamentally a player can always react based on God knowledge of the whole battlefield. In real life the Hetzer might have got the jump on the T-34s, but in the game that's not possible if the Hetzer is spotted at all. Contrast this with the other Hetzer which Bil has lost track of.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Elvis' last chance at slicing up Bil's infantry were the two HMGs. Unfortunately, both went down without doing anything (one did fire a wee bit). Given how weak his infantry forces are compared to Bil's, and that he lost the bulk of them without slowing Bil down much, I'd say he's got a low chance of being able to bloody Bil too much for the final phase of the battle.

This is typical of the German side during 1944. Too much emphasis placed on too few assets to cover too much terrain manned by too few soldiers. Lose a couple of weapons and you're pretty much done.

Steve

[MikeyD]

Sigh. I had suggested that Elvis sidestep the blow on Blau then to hit him hard with a counterpunch. But Elvis kind'a resembles a fighter whose lost his balance in the scuffle. If his Panther KOs all the T34s at Gelb (it could easily happen) it would be a morale blow but any surviving PPSh troop hunkered down in the trees still give Bil gelb.

[BletchleyGeek]

I understand this particular QB setup is meant to portray oncoming CMRT game play, but for plain tactical considerations, the VL setup is quite artificial and limiting to both players. Amount of forces, as well as map features considered, this most likely would´ve been a german rear guard action, vs. russian spearhead, with germans attempting to use the small river and large adjoining woods as forward line of resistance and main AT obstacle. With VL scattered at rather unimportant places AND known, as well as beeing the same for both players, this setup gives little choices for true tactical thinking and acting actually. Elvis is artificially enforced to neglect any point of main effort by his own choice, as is Bil who has to take the same meaningless VL, just in order to "win".

If this would be a true mission, instead of QB setup, the russian player would be rather assigned a rather simple "exit VL" objective near northern map edge and the german simply to delay and destroy enemy units, while making a fighting withdrawal. The map is perfect for that purpose, since it offers covered retreat almost everywhere. Instead the germans are tied to scattered VL in nowhere and thus doomed to be destroyed for nothing at last. So personally I´d wished for a more imaginative and creative setup, even if that´s not the actual purpose of this AAR.

I think this is a good analysis of the map, Harry.

[Vark]

Elvis could have made Bil play a far higher blood price, placing an SFMG, with mines in a wood guarding a VL is just a waste of an asset. They also had no covered routes to alternate fire positions which are essential in CM2 to keep your support assets alive. His obstacles were not covered by fire and his fire support was not integrated into his defensive scheme. As I said before, in CM1 these faults would have lost Elvis the game but not so quickly.

[Fizou]

Elvis is all but spent.. The tanks will make a nice final stand.

So for round two I want Bil defending as Germans (he has a thread in the BN forum about how to form a propper defence but had to give priority to other things - would be nice to see it continued here. Both with his tactical genious and nice aar presentation)

Attacking as the Soviets.. well c3k of course! We all want to see the human wave command. Might not be appropriate for 44 but Ken will give us a show for sure

[MOS:96B2P]

Attacking as the Soviets.. well c3k of course! We all want to see the human wave command. Might not be appropriate for 44 but Ken will give us a show for sure

+1 I'll get the popcorn ready for this one.

[BLSTK]

So for round two I want Bil defending as Germans...Attacking as the Soviets.. well c3k of course!

The Virgins of Castle Anthrax: A rematch! A rematch!

(Of course, we grognards will settle for a spanking.)

[Dadekster]

Yup, this is one of the unsolvable problems CM has because it's a game. The improvement over CMx1 is that back then Bil's T-34s could have targeted the Hetzer directly even if they hadn't spotted it. There's a huge difference between lobbing some area fire and actually targeting. So score one for the game designers

Still, fundamentally a player can always react based on God knowledge of the whole battlefield. In real life the Hetzer might have got the jump on the T-34s, but in the game that's not possible if the Hetzer is spotted at all. Contrast this with the other Hetzer which Bil has lost track of.

Steve

Yep, I hear you loud and clear on that. The other thing it does is introduces quite a bit of frustration on the player as he knows what he wants to have units do...but they don't. Very realistic of course but not fun when it ends up getting your guys killed or something not getting accomplished. Hello reality.

[Thomm]

One thing that you will learn from a certain scenario in CMRT is that you should not try to fight against SMG squads in woods. These guys can walk over German squads in woods, and it does not require a lot of thought, even if the Germans are in foxholes.

Now what if Elvis had put a belt of mines at the right distance in front of his platoon ...

Also, I would like to know how a belt of mines just inside the woods surrounding BLAU would have worked. Keeping the attackers from closing the distance and MGing them at the same time. Of course the tanks should have denied that OT-34 access to BLAU in that case.

And I learned not to put heavy weapons ON a victory location, if you can hit the attacker from the flank as he approaches instead. Taking out that HMG before spotting it was kind of brutal of Bil.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Michael Emrys]

Taking out that HMG before spotting it was kind of brutal of Bil.

The gods have not smiled on Elvis. Smirked a little maybe...

Michael

[costard]

I think Thomm's right about the mines. We may not all like having wire and mines in the game but they sure do their job.

[c3k]

Just a few in the right place drops the attack tempo...

[Vark]

Thought the Soviet method, espoused by Zhukov, was to push through the field, accepting the resultant casualties as similar to those they would have suffered if it had been defended by troops.

Surely mines spur your troops on, c3k, as they are enraged by the unmanly cowardice of the enemy using such underhand devices.