Tea Time. Beta AAR discussion threat. Not for Bill or Elvis ;-)

[Aragorn2002]

The gods have not smiled on Elvis. Smirked a little maybe...

Michael

Well, they've smiled now on his flamethrower team. Might be the last thing they will ever see, but still.

[Wicky]

Bil wrote: "...flamethrower firing out both ends of that building."

Seems odd that a flame thrower would be used from within the confines of a building. Will it follow the type of use of Panzerfaust which will fire reluctantly in exceptional circumstances?

[Erwin]

It would be safe to fire out of a window or doorway. There is no RPG backblast.

[Wicky]

Inside a wooden building?

[Erwin]

If you still the pointy end out of a window far enough, why not?

[John Kettler]

Wicky,

There's a great sequence from Battle of Berlin street fighting in which the Russians on the second floor of one side of the street let the Germans, also on the second floor, on the other side of the street have it, right through an open window. Pretty much a rope of fire going out one window, across the street and into the other window. And, no, there was no evidence of fire, other than the actual shot, from the Russian window. Whoosh! Shall see if I can find the segment for you.

Firing a flamethrower out the window or doorway of a bulding isn't at all the same as firing a Panzerfaust, Panzerschreck or bazooka from within one. The flamethrower fires a discrete stream of burning liquid, much in the manner a water pistol does. The front end of this vid shows exactly what I mean.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Jishmael]

I'm kinda impressed by the success of Elvis Flamethrower Team, but I still would#ve preferred to see him not withdraw from Blau and instead fighting it out. Its just a Matter of Time til the Flamer gets caught, and then he basically conceded the Objective without any real resistance and without binding any Enemy Armor.

I also wonder if hes considering using his now Isolated Platoon behind the Minebelt to try and Counterattack on Gelb while its not consolidated. As far as I can tell Bil doesnt even know its there. And I think it would be a great chance to turn something around and maybe get some KT34 Kills.

But well, to me it seems like Elvis's Armor is basically in a bad spot, undersupported, no good spotting, under Air Attack and about to be flanked. If he doenst get lucky I'd say this ones in the Bag for Bil.

[Michael Emrys]

I think Bil was being uncharacteristically rash in trying to rush the flamethrower team. It is deadly at close range, maybe even more so than an SMG team, and it is also in reasonably good cover, which further tips the balance in its favor. I would have had the ISUs pause and pump a round or too into the building on their way north. Probably would have killed the flamers outright and if not would have suppressed them enough to make it safe to close with infantry.

Michael

[womble]

I think Bil was being uncharacteristically rash in trying to rush the flamethrower team. It is deadly at close range, maybe even more so than an SMG team...

It does seem to have its own SMGs as well as the hose-'em-as-they-close device.

I would have had the ISUs pause and pump a round or too into the building on their way north. Probably would have killed the flamers outright and if not would have suppressed them enough to make it safe to close with infantry.

I'd've flattened the buildings the flamers might've been hiding in... all of them. Yes, uncharacteristically incuatious of Bil. I wonder if a less complete "feigned retreat" would have achieved even greater effect. Just one or two teams left to make life tricky could have slowed Bil down a lot. I think Elvis might've been right to largely abandon Blau; that would have just invited a deliberate destruction of the whole force for no return by ISU fire.

[Childress]

I'd've flattened the buildings the flamers might've been hiding in... all of them. Yes, uncharacteristically incuatious of Bil.

Not to mention that the structures on this appear to be flimsy things. Their only function is to offer concealment. They deserved to be leveled pronto.

[Holien]

I think Bil is focusing on the main threat and knows he has plenty of infantry to waste...

Interesting that Elvis is keeping his tanks buttoned and in some ways I might have too to keep T/C's alive.

But if it really does stop him from noticing mr T34 in the flank that is going to hurt....

In other threads past there is debate on how much effect T/C's being buttoned make and I think the last I remember was that it made little difference, perhaps I need to re-evaluate this and take more risks with T/C's lives...

The next few turns will be critical as Elvis does not seem to be aware of why ISU's are moving, and certainly feels that Bil is sat doing nothing with T34's. That seems to underestimate Bil, which is something I would hope I would never do...

[Battlefront.com]

In other threads past there is debate on how much effect T/C's being buttoned make and I think the last I remember was that it made little difference, perhaps I need to re-evaluate this and take more risks with T/C's lives...

Me thinks you do There is actually a significant difference for some vehicles and a MASSIVE difference for others. For example a T-34/76 without cupola is nearly blind compared to a German tank.

Think about it. How many stories do you read where the Germans are picking off Soviet tanks left right and center? Frequently. Even discounting exaggeration, of which there is plenty, there is quite a bit of truth to it. I have come to believe that a major reason why this did, in fact, happen is because many Soviet AFVs had terrible situational awareness. Not only did they not see the enemy shooting at them, they might not even know that their comrades were hit. If you're marching a company into a kill zone with that sort of handicap, the outcome is not all that hard to understand.

This also helps answer the question as to why Soviet tanks, which theoretically are nearly as good (if not better) than German tanks, were lost in much greater numbers than logic can explain. Especially late in the war when the Soviets had local numerical superiority pretty much everywhere.

Steve

[Holien]

Thxs Steve...

Note to self... Russians need heads out of tank...

Germans can stay buttoned...

Lets see what happens..

[womble]

Someone asserted on here somewhere that the Russian regulations required the TC to button when in combat, in contrast to the Germans and Western Allies who recognised that a good TC took risks to keep an eye on what was going on.

Of course, on a CM battlefield (for whatever reason) it sometimes seems like the TC isn't so much taking a risk as a bullet...

[BletchleyGeek]

This also helps answer the question as to why Soviet tanks, which theoretically are nearly as good (if not better) than German tanks, were lost in much greater numbers than logic can explain. Especially late in the war when the Soviets had local numerical superiority pretty much everywhere.

Not to mention the dismal standards when it came to crew training in the Red Army. German tank commanders were trained for a really long time, over six months I believe, all the way to early 1945. That makes a hell of a difference.

[Jishmael]

I'd've flattened the buildings the flamers might've been hiding in... all of them. Yes, uncharacteristically incuatious of Bil. I wonder if a less complete "feigned retreat" would have achieved even greater effect. Just one or two teams left to make life tricky could have slowed Bil down a lot. I think Elvis might've been right to largely abandon Blau; that would have just invited a deliberate destruction of the whole force for no return by ISU fire.

The Return would've been keeping the ISUs and a large chunk of the Soviet Attacker occupied.

[Vark]

Yup, even when they were losing they still stuck to that timetable and it did it make a hell of a difference, the Soviets won! Tanks like men are merely there to be used to achieve a mission, a Spartan like insistence on lengthy training, allied with over engineered equipment plays into the hands of good enough.

Bill has infantry to spare so he can rush things a bit, one thing he is doing is setting up a potentially brutal, one two armoured punch, which will end the scenario.

[Jishmael]

Yup, even when they were losing they still stuck to that timetable and it did it make a hell of a difference, the Soviets won! Tanks like men are merely there to be used to achieve a mission, a Spartan like insistence on lengthy training, allied with over engineered equipment plays into the hands of good enough.

I'm not sure if thats correct. I think Good Training and "overengineering" are kinda Key for Operating with a relatively small Manpower and Ressource Pool of Germany compaired to the Russians to even stand a chance at all. The early years of the Eastern Front are a good proof of that (though probably russian forces then would not be "good enough")

[Battlefront.com]

Elvis does have some punch left, especially if he can filter Blau's forces to Rot and the ones in the woods on the other side into Gelb. Bil doesn't even know the latter exists, so that could be fun to watch

Steve

[Vark]

A well trained uber tank, however cannot be in two places at once and over engineering is NOT a good thing. Ten years working with machines taught me that the three most important things for a machine are reliability, reliability and reliability. The Germans could have been far smarter when it came to production, good job their industrial organisation was as shambolic as their farming.

Unless the Soviets significantly out number the Germans, then I'd expect the majority of wins, assuming equal player ability, to go to the Germans, who were still tactically dominant. If you do loose as the Russians, content yourself with the thought that the victorious German player is probably going to have to retreat in a couple of days time!

[Vark]

Steve, how effective are Bil's infantry, by 44 I'd expect several crates of RPG's being dished out to each company, or are their specific tank hunter teams, as in CM1? Filtering troops down to try to take Gelb will surely leave them vulnerable to Bil's fifth company hitting from the rear, if they begin to sweep the woods. To make the attack work Elvis will have to deploy his armour and Bil is anticipating this, with his flanking run and ISU move.

[Jishmael]

I agree that the German Engineering couldve used a higher Focus on Reliability, especially concerning Centralisation. I remember quite a few Accounts of German Battle Equipment not being repaired because different Vehicles of the same Basic Type needed different Parts from different Companys and stuff like that. Also a lot of their Equipment was too expensive in Upkeep and not tailored for the Terrain or even bordering on the Borders of Physics (Tigers not being able to turn their Turrets at certain Inclinations and Stuff like that) I dont think those Problems make a point against the importance of advanced technology by itself.

Also any Countercounter by Bil against a Counterattack on Gelb wil be at least delayed by the Minefield, I dont believe Bil would risk rushing Infantry from the open road into Counterattack Positions. But the longer Elvis does NOT counter, the closer the Russians get, and the thinner and thinner his timewindow gets. I say counterattack now while your troops are not engaged and try to stop the momentum of the Sovjet Advance while you still can.

Or at least, go out in a blaze of glory

[John Kettler]

womble and BFC,

I'm Hatch Man! Doctrinally, Russian tank and AFV hatches are required to be closed once the unit comes off line of march and is deploying to attack. As soon as contact's imminent in defense the same applies.

The existence of the hatch closure regs is in a range of sources I can cite going back to before WW II. For example, it's in the IRemember account of a TC, later Jr. Lieutenant, who trained on BT-7s before the war and shot accurately while the tank was moving during training workup. There's the account from an IS-2 crewman on IRemember who talks about how it was a violation not to have the hatches combat locked, but bitter city fighting experience had shown that having them down, yet not locked, was the difference between partial crew survival and none when hit by a Panzerfaust. An undogged hatch allowed the otherwise lethal pressure wave an escape route, you see.

Suvorov/Rezun, who was both a Motorized Rifle Company commander (BTR-60PB) and a Tank Company (T-55) commander, explicitly states this locked hatch reg, and it may also be inferred from a remark he makes re the BTR-60PB stating how difficult it is to get not merely the planned number of men aboard, but several others as well, all in full combat gear, together with the cases and cases of ammo for the BTR's gun/coax and the BTR's F1 grenades. He talks about having the sergeant stuff the men in and jam down the hatches so they can be closed. Summer was especially fun, and he likens their plight as being human sardines in a can. In order to simply breathe, his men removed their gas mask canisters and passed the hose through the firing ports. Hardly necessary with hatches open!

The hatch closure and locking reg is also found in the early 80s DIA pub The Soviet Tank Company (U). The hatch closure reg is and has been combat doctrine, and it's trivial to show it's still being done today. Just look at the footage.

To date, I've not read a single thing which talks about a Russian WW II TC fighting head out or even hatch open. I have read an account from Kursk (Clark, The Battle of the Tanks) in which the blazing July heat and cordite fumes inside are so intense the driver and the loader pass out, necessitating a brief hatch opening to revive the men. It's clearly stated this violates the regs. It was a risk which had to be taken not merely because it deprived the tank of the ability to change position, but because the T-34 accelarator pedal worked the opposite of the usual way. The tank was racing about the battlefield, uncontrolled, at full tilt!

What you will find, in a KV-1 battle account in Panzer Destroyer, is clear discussion of the TC's using his panoramic sight to see what's going on around him. In the OT-34 memoir I posted the link to in Eastern Front literature, it's equally clear the tank's being fought buttoned. I also recall clear statements from a former T-34/76 man, who went to a T-34/85, saying how great it was to finally have a cupola and how envious they'd long been of the Germans and theirs.

I maintain that it the Russians are allowed to fight unbuttoned, it screws up the whole combat dynamic on the Eastern Front. It does so by multiplying the effectiveness of every single Russian tank in combat. I've said it before. I'll say it again. Until the Russians had radios in every tank, command was performed by signal flags. We had signal flags in our tanks and AFVs as standard fit during WW II, and I can provide the equipment list and show the flag signals to prove it. Suvorov is absolutely clear, as well, that control is exercised by signal flags while on march, radio silence being an ironbound order.

To me, this is an Eastern Front must have, in terms of realism. Bil's a phenomenal player. No doubt about it. But the effect of his formidable skill is considerably enhanced by his being able to employ blatantly ahistoric tank operating procedure.

Nor is this a trivial matter. Cold War U.S. Army FMs flatly state an unbuttoned tank (exact term doesn't matter, but TC up and head out) is 50% more effective than a buttoned one! The Israelis found the combat leverage of fighting unbuttoned was so great they took terrible TC casualties to keep that combat edge.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vark]

So if it's so ineffective, why did the Soviets insist on it? I can't see them voluntarily making their commanders limit their SA and if they persisted with this doctrine into the Cold war there must have been a reason.

[Childress]

Weren't radios common in Soviet AFVs by 1943?