Tea Time. Beta AAR discussion threat. Not for Bill or Elvis ;-)

[MikeyD]

Receivers were fairly common but transmitters were usually reserved for commanders.

[Dadekster]

So if it's so ineffective, why did the Soviets insist on it? I can't see them voluntarily making their commanders limit their SA and if they persisted with this doctrine into the Cold war there must have been a reason.

It might be ineffective but it is hard to argue the end results. Therefore if it worked before why change it?

[John Kettler]

Vark,

I don't know, but it may be that the multiple tasking of the TC was the origin. On a T-60, the TC is half the crew and handles loading, firing and commanding the light tank. Worse if a platoon or company CO! On a BT-7, the TC was also the Gunner. Same on a T-34/76. Same problems with other command levels, too. Therefore, preventing such losses has enormous value.

It wasn't until the T-34/85 that the Russians finally caught up with the German ergonomics, which the Russian tankers envied. This is a big part of the reason trophy tanks were used.

The next part of the presumed reg basis is the way the crews were trained. TCs went to separate schools than did drivers. Drivers went to driver-mechanic school. Enlisted selected to be TCs only were trained for that role and, upon graduation, became sergeants. Would-be tank officers went to places like the Kharkov Tank Academy and, following extensive classroom and some field training, upon graduation, became junior lieutenants who were platoon commanders. You can read all this stuff on IRemember under Tankers. Loaders were draftees who received brief instruction on what was what and how to do it.

Here's the kicker. Not only is there a considerable investment by the State in training specialist personnel, but I've yet to read one Russian mention of cross training, an item specifically addressed in U.S. tank and tank destroyer FMs. If it happened at all, it was informal. I don't recall seeing it in the The Soviet Tank Company, and Suvorov says absolutely nothing, either, regarding it. If a Russian AFV had a separate gunner and the TC got whacked, then it could still fight to some degree, being limited by available optics and such.

Therefore, in fighting any Russian tank pre T-34/85, the TC was critical. Take him out, and the tank's combat effectiveness plummeted; could easily result in the loss of the tank. If you peruse some of the accounts I've posted on the CMBN Forum, you can read of Allied TCs sniped, wounded or killed by shell splinters, hit by MG and rifle fire, cut in half by tank shells and other grisly events. The closed hatch Russian reg prevents such occurrences.

To my knowledge, the tanker training approach I've described above is still in use today. During the Cold War, per Suvorov, Category A units had full crews; Category B had everyone except the loader, and Category C had the TC and the gunner, with everyone else coming from the reserves or drafted. Category C units were termed kadrirovanny (cadre), but were colloquially called castrirovanny (castrated)!

Overall, the Russians relied not on high individual unit effectiveness, but on high overall effectiveness, and that was attained by keeping scarce, expensively trained personnel whole as long as possible. Perhaps one of our grogs can produce the relevant combat reg on hatch closure. Certainly, we have others, some of which can be seen on Battlefield.ru under Documents.

Childress,

No, they weren't, and you can read German accounts from Kursk (Clark), specifically stating how disadvantaged the Russians were by having radio (transceivers) only down to company level. Kill the company CO, and the surviving tanks were in complete disarray and wandered about the battlefield, easily plucked off. The Russians weren't entirely alone, though.

Prior to late 1944, U.S. tanks, because of enormous demand for radios, had transceivers only in the PL's and APL's tanks. The rest had receivers only. Not sure about the British, but what they got from U.S. was likely same as our setup.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Aragorn2002]

Looks like disaster is imminent for Elvis. I don't understand what he is waiting for. A short counterattack would have had some chance, but now he is just waiting until he is outmanoevred, which is exactly what Bil is doing. That view from that T-34/85 on the Panther's flank is pretty spectacular. I would add another tank to join him if I were Bil. Chance to kill most of Elvis's armor in one strike.

[Holien]

Looks like disaster is imminent for Elvis. I don't understand what he is waiting for. A short counterattack would have had some chance, but now he is just waiting until he is outmanoevred, which is exactly what Bil is doing. That view from that T-34/85 on the Panther's flank is pretty spectacular. I would add another tank to join him if I were Bil. Chance to kill most of Elvis's armor in one strike.

And so it happens.... I bet Elvis is a tad surprised!!

[Aragorn2002]

And so it happens.... I bet Elvis is a tad surprised!!

Well, really. Something like that had to happen. Especially with buttoned tanks. I bet that Panther is a goner too. After that the battle is as good as over.

[Holien]

IMO he is a worse position than standing back and launching an attack has put him into a bad position. Not that he knew what he was driving into...

Again not working your forces as a whole costs you...

If he had infantry support with eyes on he might have had a better chance...

Ohh well live and learn...

[Aragorn2002]

He didn't really launch an attack. He started to launch one and then stopped it. He should have finished that attack fast, wipe out those T-34s and move his armor asap to other areas, where they were needed. Yeah, all history now.

[c3k]

"Eyes on..." is the critical part. Elvis' infantry is weak and not in position. His tanks are it: buttoned up doesn't help. Missing that Hetzer TC hurts. Sitting in a flat field and waiting for Bil would just lead to Elvis losing the tanks for no return. At least moving forward he may get some hits in.

Having played with T34/85's, I think they outfight Panthers at 500m or less. Probably about equal out to ~800m. Afterwards, the Panther has an advantage. (Frontal aspect engagements.) <--- All this just my opinion, based on rough, gut, feel from playing around a bit. The T34/85 gun is similar to a Tiger I's with a lower velocity. That's a lot of oomph. Past several hundred meters, crew experience is CRITICAL.

My .02.

Ken

[Holien]

He didn't really launch an attack. He started to launch one and then stopped it. He should have finished that attack fast, wipe out those T-34s and move his armor asap to other areas, where they were needed. Yeah, all history now.

I see what you mean you referring to original move to location, if he had pressed home then, yes may have been different.

Stopping and getting whacked by the plane and giving Bil time to respond and counter was another mistake.

Lets hope the Panther hits home 1st...

[Michael Emrys]

Giving Bil the time and leisure to figure out his next move is fatal. If you can't get him off balance and keep him off balance, you might as well just throw in the towel and save your troops the pain.

Michael

[Vinnart]

What I don't understand is why were Elvis's tanks coming in to the tree line at that angle giving the T-34 their flanks? The objective is clearly to the left of his armor from the screens Bil posted. Even the panther has his turret rotated to the side. They should have come in straight pointing toward Gelb. This mistake has cost him one hetzer, and the panther could go easy now. Perhaps it was a pathfinding glitch is my only reasoning for this sideways movement to contact.

I think he should have brought some infanty from the mine field as a diversion for the T-34 before he attacked. He may have got a TC to at least button, and perhaps rotate toward them as I do not think Bil has armor cover arc set. At a bit of delay he then should have come in with tanks to engage the T-34s from the other direction of his infantry.

The best time to counter is as soon as possible. Waiting only allows the opposition to manuver, and gather his defence. Speed of decisive action has a better chance than waiting too long in this case. It is a fine dance from knowing when to be patient, and when agressive speed is needed.

Elvis certainly got his money worth out of the flamethrower team. He could have got many more successful ambushes with other units he had there with all those buildings to work with. He just needed short cover arcs.

[A Canadian Cat]

What I don't understand is why were Elvis's tanks coming in to the tree line at that angle giving the T-34 their flanks? The objective is clearly to the left of his armor from the screens Bil posted. Even the panther has his turret rotated to the side. They should have come in straight pointing toward Gelb. This mistake has cost him one hetzer, and the panther could go easy now. Perhaps it was a pathfinding glitch is my only reasoning for this sideways movement to contact.

Elvis's tanks are facing the objective in the field away from the tree line. Bill has run one T34 up to the treeline way at the back of the map. That T34 is the one with the side shot on the Panther.

I think he should have brought some infanty from the mine field as a diversion for the T-34 before he attacked. He may have got a TC to at least button, and perhaps rotate toward them as I do not think Bil has armor cover arc set.

I agree that would have been a good idea. Distracting tanks is always a good idea.

Elvis certainly got his money worth out of the flamethrower team. He could have got many more successful ambushes with other units he had there with all those buildings to work with. He just needed short cover arcs.

Next time 100 frame thrower teams vs Bill.

[womble]

Next time 100 frame thrower teams vs Bill.

If you're going to send The Defenestrator up against Bil, you have to send Dog Welder and Bueno Excellente too... So 98 frame throwers and his mates...

[Battlefront.com]

What I don't understand is why were Elvis's tanks coming in to the tree line at that angle giving the T-34 their flanks? The objective is clearly to the left of his armor from the screens Bil posted. Even the panther has his turret rotated to the side. They should have come in straight pointing toward Gelb. This mistake has cost him one hetzer, and the panther could go easy now. Perhaps it was a pathfinding glitch is my only reasoning for this sideways movement to contact.

No pathing glitch. Elvis had to explicitly plot a path that would aim his tanks in a specific direction, which apparently he did not. Instead he drove straight and then (probably) gave them a FACE Command once they were in the treeline. As you say, this was a mistake, especially for the turretless Hetzers.

I think he should have brought some infanty from the mine field as a diversion for the T-34 before he attacked.

According to his latest post he is thinking of these guys separately from the armor. Realistic, but not good for his gameplay

The best time to counter is as soon as possible. Waiting only allows the opposition to manuver, and gather his defence. Speed of decisive action has a better chance than waiting too long in this case. It is a fine dance from knowing when to be patient, and when agressive speed is needed

I think that is why he moved the armor without the infantry. Infantry would have taken roughly 2 turns to get into place.

Steve

[BletchleyGeek]

As you say, this was a mistake, especially for the turretless Hetzers.

These last two turns have quite confirmed my misgivings about using turretless AFV's in that way against AFV's with turrets.

[Dadekster]

"Eyes on..." is the critical part. Elvis' infantry is weak and not in position. His tanks are it: buttoned up doesn't help. Missing that Hetzer TC hurts. Sitting in a flat field and waiting for Bil would just lead to Elvis losing the tanks for no return. At least moving forward he may get some hits in.

Having played with T34/85's, I think they outfight Panthers at 500m or less. Probably about equal out to ~800m. Afterwards, the Panther has an advantage. (Frontal aspect engagements.) <--- All this just my opinion, based on rough, gut, feel from playing around a bit. The T34/85 gun is similar to a Tiger I's with a lower velocity. That's a lot of oomph. Past several hundred meters, crew experience is CRITICAL.

My .02.

Ken

I haven't played CMRT of course but I completely agree with this based on what little I do know regarding both these weapon systems. Since I love analogies the way I see it as a shotgun versus a rifle tbh. Any average person can pick up a shotgun and get some use out of it within a certain distance. Not so much with a rifle but in the right environment with someone who knows how to shot...well shotgun person is beyond screwed. They better have lots of friends willing to soak up lead or have lots of artillery and air support.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Looks like "gg" time for Elvis.

[Michael Emrys]

Unless he's got a rabbit in one of his hats, I'm afraid it's the Doors playing "This Is the End".

Michael

[Fizou]

Nice show case! Now with the panther taken out I believe ist game, set and match for KomKor Bil.

So can we have another? I want another QB, Bil defending as Germans (showing how to put up a propper defence - no disrespect to Elvis - Im reffering to the thread Bil started in the BN forum), and c3k as the Soviet attacker.

It will be awesome.

[Odin]

I think it's surrender time for Elvis. Great AAR though, it's had me gripped all the way through.

Any chance of organising another while we're waiting for RT's release?

[Baneman]

Anyone can see him attack. Everyone wants to see c3k Defend ! THAT will be awesome.

[undercovergeek]

Anyone can see him attack. Everyone wants to see c3k Defend ! THAT will be awesome.

i suspect it will mostly look like the 'attack' version, with more shouting

[Vinnart]

Anyone can see him attack. Everyone wants to see c3k Defend ! THAT will be awesome.

Actually we saw c3K do mainly defense last game he played Bil. Remember he held the town first in the meeting engagement. At that point he was defending for the rest of the game. That is why I like meeting engagement PBEM most. There is no set attacker or defender, and often the player must do both.

Since Bil seems to be the steady AAR preview guy I would like to see him alternate attacking and defending unless it is a meeting engagement. Bil seems like he is always playing as the attacker in A/D battles.

As for this battle Elvis should surrender at this point. He fought an honorable game albeit with some critical mistakes. The biggest one being his tank charge at the end with having to FACE when arriving at that tree line. If he had used waypoints in an arcing configuration he would have come in front first. That could have made all the difference avoiding exposing his flanks.

[Fizou]

Yes.. Ken commanding a hord of the Red army against a determined defence headed by Bil. Attack attack attack vs getting the most out of every unit.