Tea Time. Beta AAR discussion threat. Not for Bill or Elvis ;-)

[Battlefront.com]

Elvis can't afford to lose this exchange because if he does his infantry is going to have some tough sledding to do.

Especially because they are Stragglers. Let me mention something about them for a sec.

With a standard German Rifle Squad there is a potent mix of weapons which give the unit a very good overall capability. But what happens when the Squad takes a few casualties? What if those casualties wind up losing the LMG and/or a SMG or otherwise non-bolt action rifle? The firepower is now reduced both in terms of quantity (headcount) and quality (faster firing weapons).

Compare this to a Soviet SMG Squad that is pure SMGs. Sure, it is a less tactically flexible unit, but when it suffers a casualty the firepower is not reduced greater than the headcount loss. Which means a Soviet 9 man SMG squad reduced to 5 men is roughly operating at 50% firepower. A German 9 man Rifle Squad reduced to 5 men could be operating with something like 20% of it's original firepower.

Elvis' infantry is has very few weapons other than bolt action rifles. This means that as he loses men his combat power isn't disproportionally affected as much as if he had regular Rifle Squads. However, his starting (best case) outgoing firepower sucks compared to pretty much any Squad in either CMBN or CMRT. Heck, I'd say Italian Squads are better in terms of firepower.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Steve

[womble]

I think Elvis is in a Bad Place at the moment. Looks like the ISUs are going to get the drop on those Panzers, and with Bil "Shooting and Scooting", they might not even get to test the frontal armour on the assault guns... I think Elvis has mistakenly assessed his intermediate location as in defilade from the woods where he knows the ISUs are. Or maybe the Panzers will spot the ISUs first...

[Baneman]

Yes, I agree.

In any battle with Bil ( if I were ever to be in that position ), I would always assume that he will spot your stuff - because he does !

I think from here Bil will eliminate the Axis armour, creep through the woods not unlike alien xenomorphs ( shooting them just makes things worse when they bleed on you ) and generally make it look easy.

Of course, when WE try that after RT comes out, it will never work quite as well

[Vinnart]

In any battle with Bil ( if I were ever to be in that position ), I would always assume that he will spot your stuff - because he does !

In this case his infantry is in front concealed in the woods spotting for the Soviet assault guns, where as Elvis has his tanks in the open so Bil has spotted them first as one should expect. In the game with Ken he spotted Ken's armor first because he was sitting in concealment while Ken's tanks were moving, or out in the open also, as one would expect.

I definitely do not underestimate the German armor optics though. I went up against some German assault guns last CMFI game with some Shermans in foggy weather. I was in dense woods, and the Germans were out in the open, and I'l be damned the assault guns spotted, and shot first almost every time. I was getting pissed losing tank after tank when I felt I should have spotted, and shot first being in better concealment. Perhaps it was the fog the assault guns were able to see better through. I’m not sure.

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

I think Elvis is in a Bad Place at the moment.

at the moment? It seem he was already in big trouble as he choose to fight against Bil. But nevertheless, a great AAR.

Does someone know whether the tankriders can shoot from the top of their tanks or not? Would be interessting to know.

[John Kettler]

Vinnart,

Marginal conditions, one being fog, is where the German optics really shine. At least, that's what extensive research revealed back in the days of CMx1. I believe it had to do with instantly changeable optical filters. (Checks at Snyder's Treasures--Military Optics) Selectable filters running from Clear (Klar) to Dark (Dunkel), as seen in the Inventory Number JM101 for GOPT-121 German World War Two 10 x 80 German Kriegsmarine Navy Painted SCHNEIDER Optics Binocular Direction Finding Flak 36 (88 mm) Gun sight.

For examples of what the world looks like through the filters, please see U-boat flak gunsight over at the Wehrmacht-Awards site.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

This tank duel will be VERY interesting. And I'm saying that as one of the guys who has made this game. I'm definitely breaking out the popcorn

Bil's ISUs are not nearly the clear winners some may think. They have to get off a couple of shots before they have a decent chance of hitting. And if Elvis keeps his stuff moving, that's going to complicate things even further. Repeated shots, thanks to the very slow reload, basically means staying in the same spot. This is not like going up against a Jagdpanther!

Let's not forget that the Hetzers are tiny targets.

On the other hand, Bil's T-34s are a much bigger threat. They can move, they have a hope of surviving a hit, and they likely have a better chance of achieving a kill shot compared to the ISU-122s.

Where the ISU-122s will shine is once Bil has figured out where Elvis' infantry are holed up. Hitting will be easier, chance of casualties higher, and Elvis will have to move positions or get wiped out. That will be extremely risky if Bil's infantry is anywhere nearby.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Also, let's give Elvis some credit on the infantry front. Bil has taken some of the bait on the eastern side of the map, right where there's a chance of running into Elvis' prepared positions in the woods SE of OBJ Blau. Bil was going to skirt the area, now he looks like he's going to invest.

There's also going to be a rather nasty surprise when the 120mm mortars start kicking in. Bil's bunched up and it's possible he could suffer quite a bit if Elvis can make it count. And even if he doesn't, Bil will need to respond and he'll probably advance faster than he would like, taking risks of no intel vs. staying and being pummeled.

And we're now seeing a hit of what happens when that happens as his HMG is opening up now and scoring some hits.

This is definitely worthy of popcorn

Steve

[Dadekster]

If Bill eliminates Elvis's armor then the biggest enemy Bill will have after that will be the clock. I don't think he has the time to level building after building with HE but I sure as heck would love to see that happen. Course watching German armor pummel the ISU's into submission under a barrage of impacts from superior RoF will be fun to watch as well but I don't think Bill or the TacAI will let that happen.

I see this armor duel as one person armed with a rapier and another armed with a sledgehammer™.

[AttorneyAtWar]

I see this armor duel as one person armed with a rapier and another armed with a sledgehammer.

Thats a great analogy for the entire war on the eastern front really.

I think I will write that one down...

[Dadekster]

Thats a great analogy for the entire war on the eastern front really.

I think I will write that one down...

You can't I trademarked it already

[Vinnart]

Thanks for the info John. How do the Soviet optics rate in general, and in bad weather?

[Vark]

The ISU had the same gun and IIRC sighting system as the IS-2, and the Germans accorded that a great deal of respect, out to 1000m it has a decent chance of a first round hit and a high PK, if it does. The Panther crews were trained to put their tanks at a 30 degree angle when facing the 122mm. The ISU can also start chucking area fire HE to cause buttoning or crew casualties, and as Steve said the real tank killers are Bil's T-34 85's. If both ISU's are burning hulks, but Bil has the objectives, they did their job, though ISU-152's would have been better building busters.

[A Canadian Cat]

I see this armor duel as one person armed with a rapier and another armed with a sledgehammer™.

I am not sure what you think would happen if two people faced off one with a rapier and one with a sledge hammer but after watching a lot of fencing I suspect that in the majority of the cases the rapier holder would dance around tempting the the sledge hammer holder to swung, dodge the slow swing and them stab the guy in the heart and watch him bleed out unable to even pick up the sledge hammer again.

[Ron]

There's also going to be a rather nasty surprise when the 120mm mortars start kicking in. Bil's bunched up and it's possible he could suffer quite a bit if Elvis can make it count. And even if he doesn't, Bil will need to respond and he'll probably advance faster than he would like, taking risks of no intel vs. staying and being pummeled.

Yes this is what I have been expecting, and probably what Elvis is hoping for also. If his infantry in Blau can fix Bil's infantry in the woods long enough for the 120mm to wreck some havoc, then I think that will dramatically alter the scenario. At least until Bil's armour gets involved anyways.

[Dadekster]

I am not sure what you think would happen if two people faced off one with a rapier and one with a sledge hammer but after watching a lot of fencing I suspect that in the majority of the cases the rapier holder would dance around tempting the the sledge hammer holder to swung, dodge the slow swing and them stab the guy in the heart and watch him bleed out unable to even pick up the sledge hammer again.

Yep, but that sledge only needs that one glancing blow to make an impression on rapier dude. Looks like that RoF advantage for Elvis is paying dividends already. I didn't notice it but what are the crew levels for the respective forces? I'd wager that makes a big difference in this duel as well.

[Cymru]

I see this armor duel as one person armed with a rapier and another armed with a sledgehammer™.

Memories of Rob Roy with Tim Roth (rapier) defeating the Scots champion armed with a claymore.

[MikeyD]

Lets recall that last AAR (Bil's Market Garden AAR against c3k) Bil found himself stalled and ultimately stymied, until real life called an early halt to the battle. Methodically rolling up the enemy works well as long as the enemy cooperates in being rolled up. If I recall (and interpret) that battle correctly c3k managed to harass and delay Bil until Bil's forward momentum just petered out. Russian tactics seem to largely be 'close and crush' If you're too pokey at closing you lose the shock value.

[Vinnart]

I think Bil’s first instinct to skirt Elvis’s flank force was a good one, and now it seems he is being a bit impatient to want to attack there before encircled that location. I think he should hold off his frontal attack until he clears the big, patch of woods to the rear of Elvis’s spot. This would give him more support fire, and trap Elvis’s troops there. At that point perhaps I would consider bringing the flame tank over for some area fire in those woods, which should certainly raise the pucker factor for those Germans there. Once softened, and surrounded then I would attack. Of course the biggest worry bringing the flame tank in for the hot foot is the uncertainty of Elvis possibly having a panzershreck with the guys in that spot he likes, but I might gamble that because I want to see some flames .

The main thing I don’t like about that spot is there is no good retreat route, which sooner or later I think he will have to do.

[John Kettler]

Vinnart,

Per a most interesting discussion on a 2001 BFC Forums thread Tank Gun Accuracy, the Russian sights were okay, but not spoken of in glowing terms. This is based on multiple technical analyses. By contrast, the U.S., the British and the Russians all raved about superior German optics.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/archive/index.php/t-26598.html

Tank Net has a great thread called US and UK tank/anti tank gun optics of WW2. Happily, not only is there tabular data on the various Russian sights, but a series of hyperlinks on Page 2 showing the reticles for these sights. Nowhere so far have I encountered any reference to Russian use of optical filters.

List of sights and periscopes (Post 9)

-Soviet-

TMFP/TMFP-1 - 12.7mm/20mm - monocular telescope, x2.5, 15deg FoV

TMF-1 - 45mm 20K, monocular telescope, x2.5, 20deg FoV

TSMF - 45mm 20K (BT-5 and early BT-7), x2.5, 20deg FoV

TOP m.1930 - 45mm 20K m.1932, monocular telescope, x2.5, 15deg FoV, 6400m

TOS - 45mm 20K m.1938, monocular telescope, x2.5, 15deg FoV, FoV independently stabilized

TOP m.1930 (T-28, T-35) - 76mm m.1927/32 - monocular telescope, x2.5, 15deg FoV

T-5 (KV-2 m.1940) - 152mm M-10T, monocular telescope, x2.5, 15deg FoV, 12000m

ST-10/18 - 152mm ML-20/122mm A-19, monocular telescope

TOD-1/3/6/8/7/5 - 76mm KT/76mm L-10/76mm L-11/76mm F-32/76mm F-34/152mm M-10T - monocular telescope, x2.5, 15deg FoV

TMFD-7/8/14/15 - 76mm F-34/76mm F-32/57mm ZiS-4, monocular telescope, x2.5, 15deg FoV

9T-13 (KV-1S) - 76mm ZiS-5, monocular telescope, x2.5, 15deg FoV

10T-13/15/17 - 76mm ZiS-5/85mm D-5/122mm D-25, monocular telescope, x2.5, 15deg FoV

TSh-15/16/17/19 - 85mm D-5/85mm ZiS-S-53/122mm D-25/100mm D-10, monocular articulate telescope, x4, 16deg FoV

TShB - 122mm D-25T, binocular articulate telescope, x4, 26deg FoV

PT monocular periscopes - x2.5, 26deg FoV, 360deg rotation (except PT-9 that could not rotate).

Reticles (Post 28)

Yes, they're on WoT related site, but as you can see, the JPEGs shots are clearly taken from the actual Russian weapon manuals!

Soviet:

TOP-1:

http://wiki.worldoft...°Ð¹Ð»:TOP-1.jpg

PP-1 telescope (45mm m.1937 ATG):

http://wiki.worldoft...айл:PP-1.jpg

PP-9 telescope (45mm m.1937 ATG):

http://wiki.worldoft...айл:PP-9.jpg

TMFD-1

http://wiki.worldoft...йл:TMFD-7.jpg

10T-15:

http://wiki.worldoft...йл:10T-15.jpg

10T-17:

http://wiki.worldoft...¹Ð»:10Т-17.jpg

TSh-15:

http://wiki.worldoft...йл:TSh-15.jpg

TSh-19:

http://wiki.worldoft...йл:TSh-19.jpg

TSh-45 (IS-4, IS-7):

http://wiki.worldoft...йл:TSh-45.jpg

ST-10:

http://wiki.worldoft...¹Ð»:СТ-10.jpg

PTK TC periscope:

http://wiki.worldoft...¤Ð°Ð¹Ð»:PTK.jpg

PT-1 periscopic gunsight, other PT-x series were same, just different range scale:

http://wiki.worldoft...айл:PT-1.jpg

PG-1M artillery sight also used on SU-122, SU-152, ISU-122/152:

http://wiki.worldoft...л:ПГ-1М.jpg

TSh-2-22 (T-54 model 1951):

http://wiki.worldoft...¹Ð»:TSh2-22.jpg

TSh-2-22 (T-54A):

http://wiki.worldoft...л:TSh2A-22.jpg

PUAZO-3 (85 mm AAA predictor & rangefinder system) Translated from German Wiki passage.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommandogerät_PUAZO-3

"In the described configuration, the PUAZO-3 was not used at night and in poor visibility."

Seems to me that if such a complex, expensive device intended to optically direct an entire 85mm battery had such a limitation, then the likelihood of mere tanks being able to shoot effectively in poor visibility and sans illumination at night would appear to be zero. Later in the Wiki it says

"Even during the Korean War, the unit was on the part of North Korean and Chinese troops used. Here, the PUAZO-3 was coupled with the gun straightening units SON SON 2 or 3, which provided the target data for the command device in place of the rangefinder. In order for a combat air targets at night and in poor visibility was generally possible."

Seems to contradict what I just said, right? It doesn't. The "gun straightening units" are radars! See AAA Fire Control Radars

http://users.sch.gr/dlabaditis/TH/radars/index.htm#FCR

MikeyD,

Here is what a deployed M-1939 37mm battery looks like during WW II. The big piece of gear is the aforementioned PUAZO.

http://jedsite.info/artillery-papa/papa/puazo_series/puazo-series.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

I think Bil’s first instinct to skirt Elvis’s flank force was a good one, and now it seems he is being a bit impatient to want to attack there before encircled that location.

Bil has paid Elvis a great compliment with the latest batch of reports. Calling those guys a "pain in the butt" is high praise He also specifically pointed out what we already know and that's Bil had to "invest" in the forest instead of just passing through it, while at the same time Elvis got way more intel out of the deal than Bil did.

Bil's worry, I think, is that he can get hit in the flank by a force that will then be much more difficult to deal with than right now. There is validity to this concern. Further, I think Bil overestimated his ability to storm the position with a small force based on how his earlier skirmishes went. The difference here is that Elvis planned on being here and has reminded us that he LOVES this position. Bil is finding out that this is not going to be a repeat of the earlier easy pickings.

Elvis' plan is starting to unfold fairly well. It's gutsy and risky, yes, but most good plans have some degree of that.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Further, I think Bil overestimated his ability to storm the position with a small force based on how his earlier skirmishes went. The difference here is that Elvis planned on being here and has reminded us that he LOVES this position. Bil is finding out that this is not going to be a repeat of the earlier easy pickings.

I think the biggest difference is that this time it was Bil who was moving and making noise while Elvis sat quietly until he could spring his ambush. And by splitting his squads, Bil made them more brittle and vulnerable in this kind of situation. So a number of factors shifted in Elvis' favor and against Bil. What will be interesting to see going forward is how each of them responds to this encounter, what lessons they will take away from it.

Michael

[womble]

I was expecting Bil to just circumvallate that little field and plaster it with mortar fire, not go in (with a lone squad?) and winkle out the Jerries the hard way. Am I right in thinking he was hoping for some support from the flame tank? Or was that somewhere else?

[Michael Emrys]

Am I right in thinking he was hoping for some support from the flame tank? Or was that somewhere else?

It is somewhere else IIRC, but he is bringing it over now to do the job. Apparently he meant to take the position by main force and was surprised at how good the Germans were this time around and how poorly his own troops performed. The flame tank should restore the balance if the Germans don't have a handy means to kill it. Lacking effective AT weapons, this would be an excellent time to perform the ancient and time honored military maneuver known as the "bug out".

As I have opined before, I think at this point of the game Elvis' best strategy is that as long as they are in the woods, to set up ambushes, spring them, then fall back and set up another ambush. This wears the Soviets down and makes them use time deploying only to have their blows fall on empty ground. Gravy would be if Elvis' artillery should catch the Reds while they are massing for an attack.

Michael

[renaldo1]

I really like the way that after the first armour exchange both Elvis and Bil are asking themselves exactly the same question : should I stay and hope to get shots / hits or should I back off to safety?

It's the classic "Should I stay or should I go?". I think the line to follow is: "If I stay there will be trouble, if I go it will be double" - I think that's sound advice. If either backs off then they concede a psychological victory to the other. In either of their situations I'd recommend to stay put just to say to the other "I'm comfortable with this. Are you?"

I wonder if The Clash wrote the song with this situation in mind? It seems so apt ...