Christmas Bone

[MikeyD]

especially as T-34's have no rear facing periscopes

That's nothin' compared to Hetzer. When closed down the commander ONLY has a rear-facing periscope! He's blind facing forward!

[Hardcore_javier]

Greatings from chile! I recently bought the 2 new expansion (MG, GUSTAV) lovely!

My question!

If the maps can reach 30 km2...we can see the rocket launchers and the heavy artillery pieces now in CM:Bag?

Saludos!

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

Am not sure what to make of your assertion (can't tell whether you're being facetious or simply guffawing over design stupidity), but a man who commanded one during WW II neglects to mention that little item about a rear only looking periscope, a design approach which strikes me as ludicrous. He does say that the vehicle commander had nowhere nearly as many periscopes as did his confreres in other TDs. Am not sure whether that remark is pure periscopes only or also takes in, say, cupola vision blocks.

http://pzfahrer.net/armin.html

Oh, and here's a must have for the CMBN pack, right? I think not, but it sure is cool, and certain parties here might find other, earlier uses for it--in a different camo pattern.

http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/poland/7TP/7tp-1.html

And for a doable vehicle for the BoB pack, how about a turretless T-34 chassis (chassis already done at BFC), armed with a 2cm Drilling (not only built but in MG). Quantity built? One, so Rarity is off the charts!

http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/su/hypothetical/flakpanzer_t-34.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vinnart]

Absolutly a great Christmas gift this news is BF! I am so looking forward to the new features. It just keeps getting better, and better!! My jaw dropped when I a saw 30k maps! Dammit now I gotta buy a new PC for that Mine now can't even play large/huge without lag. and long load times.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

Given the new map sizes available, may I suggest that BFC seriously consider giving us board deployable versions of all tube artillery through Corps? In this way, we can model actions in which an armored breakthrough puts the artillery batteries in jeopardy, conceivably forcing DF engagements over open sights. I've read an account of an action am Ost in which a StuG Brigade attacked, broke through and went in and savaged Russian divisional artillery. Also, if the artillery's on the board, given certain map configurations, then players have to actively plan how they're going to site and move their artillery as the battle or battles unfold.

Am somewhat intrigued by the potential for weapons such as the siG 33 to switch over from Indirect Fire to Direct Fire as the enemy closes. Again, I've got a combat account of exactly this occurring. The weather's not great, diminishing visibility, and a sIG 33 unit fires on sound contacts in a gully not in LOS (Russian regiment forming up to attack) and some distance away. The German fire partially disrupts, but can't stop, the planned Russian infantry attack, and as the range drops, the sIG 33s have to switch to Direct Fire mode.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Buzz]

Christmas Bone = CM's return to the Eastern Front:

1. Ground to Air fire.

2. Ammo Dumps.

3. Vehicle Ammo Leveling.

4. Larger Maps.

5. Tank riders

And of course the usual things one should expect from a new theater of war... new terrain, new UI graphics, etc. Oh, and obviously what I just mentioned is just a few things that are new to the game.

Better still... these new features are going to be available to CMBN and CMFI as Upgrade 3.0.

Steve

All good Steve, Moon, Phil, and everyone at Battlefront.

Sneaky how you didn't mention the New Modern in the East.... Black Sea n' such... in 3.0 Happy Holidays.

[Erwin]

Really good point from Vark:

"The problem I see is the ability of the Soviets to be far too flexible, tactically. Gone are the crude but workable command delays, so what to stop a Soviet rifle company/ tank platoon reacting with unhistoric rapidity to a flanking attack?"

I don't expect to see command delays return any time soon. But, they were useful in simulating command and control issues.

[Michael Emrys]

I want to burn cities/towns and villages down

Are you a registered arsonist with the police?

:eek:

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

I am hoping for something that mimics the command delay in CMBB. Yes, a bit gamey but it really did make you feel you had much less control over your conscript/green troops/tanks and that they were a different breed to command. I would like to see something like that for units out of contact with their leaders. Something to make the differentiation amongst quality really felt. Perhaps no assault, no ambush, no covered arcs for conscripts – they just shoot, move and fast move. Green would have more options. In leader contact, the more options. I really want to see something that prohibits green/conscript Russian tanks without Radios and without leader contact to feel like they should. You should not be able to command them as you would a veteran in the same situation. If they both respond as quickly and with all options, then we are missing something. I am sure Steve/Charles/Phil et al. will think of something. If not, please bring back an option for command delay.

That's worth thinking about.

Michael

[Barrold]

I just had a flashback to the CMBB Sneak Peak at Rune's place...

Thanks for the Christmas Bone, I am looking forward to it!

BDH

[sburke]

That's worth thinking about.

Michael

Steve has actually covered this at length when talking about the old CM style delays and why they were not incorporated into Cmx2. Honestly I do not expect that to change. While many of us (myself included) really love having an operational aspect to CM, Steve has never conceded the point that CM is a tactical game. Granted that line is tricky, but when folks here talk about moving that regimental reserve, I don't think BF really cares to incorporate any additional programming to effect unit communications for that scale.

For those of us running campaign games, I would expect the C&C level delays to be incorporated from whatever we use at an op level. Broadsword and I used St Lo which actually had a decent C&C layer and so far the one for Where Eagles Dare is working out fairly interestingly as well.

[BletchleyGeek]

This is great news. Not just the very close release of Bagration but also the news about 3.0 upgrades for both CMBN and CMFI being as well in the pipeline.

I read that Bagration almost got released in 2013... too bad, and not too bad at the same time, as I wouldn't have had any time for it with all the family leaning on me []

Looking forward to the Bagration AARs, which will probably answering most of the questions I have (such as if it will be possible to split Soviet squads). In any case, kudos to everyone involved in the development of this great tactical wargame!

[Canada Guy]

Sburke,

What Michael and I were referring to were the time delays that units with low training had to wait until they carried out your orders in CMBB - if you wanted a conscript tank going from a to b, then you have to wait 120 seconds before it will start to move - all very tactical.it made it feel as if you could not just order conscript/green troops around the board without consequences or delays.

There were also tactical training seen in the early/mid German army where they had more initiative and soviet troops did not. We need something to mimic this feeling of less control as I would not like to see a soviet conscript tank outside of leader contact And without a radio moving with the same freedom as I would expect a late war t-85 with A veteran crew. It would not feel right. While the command delay was not perfect, it was better than nothing and right now we do not seem to have anything comparable.

I recall Steve saying that BF did not like the command delay but they were looking into something else to provide the same feel of leading differently experienced troops.

[_Axe_]

I just had a flashback to the CMBB Sneak Peak at Rune's place...

Thanks for the Christmas Bone, I am looking forward to it!

BDH

One of my favourite CMBB campaigns was rune's Failure on the Aksai.

[stikkypixie]

Sburke,

What Michael and I were referring to were the time delays that units with low training had to wait until they carried out your orders in CMBB - if you wanted a conscript tank going from a to b, then you have to wait 120 seconds before it will start to move - all very tactical.it made it feel as if you could not just order conscript/green troops around the board without consequences or delays.

There were also tactical training seen in the early/mid German army where they had more initiative and soviet troops did not. We need something to mimic this feeling of less control as I would not like to see a soviet conscript tank outside of leader contact And without a radio moving with the same freedom as I would expect a late war t-85 with A veteran crew. It would not feel right. While the command delay was not perfect, it was better than nothing and right now we do not seem to have anything comparable.

I recall Steve saying that BF did not like the command delay but they were looking into something else to provide the same feel of leading differently experienced troops.

I don't know, German units with (how much more?) flexibility reacting instantly is just as unrealistic. In CMSF where the in the new game engine the NATO allies have vastly superior C2 compared to the relatively blind Syrians, the Syrians are at huge disadvantage and expect to see the same in new Russian game. Would be interesting to see what to decide to add on top of that though

[sfhand]

I don't know, German units with (how much more?) flexibility reacting instantly is just as unrealistic. In CMSF where the in the new game engine the NATO allies have vastly superior C2 compared to the relatively blind Syrians, the Syrians are at huge disadvantage and expect to see the same in new Russian game. Would be interesting to see what to decide to add on top of that though

After having recently tried to hold off British para's (I don't know their ratings but am guessing veteran at minimum) with conscript Italian troops in fortified positions I feel the idea of command delays to reflect the units' deficiencies is totally unnecessary...

[Ghost of Charlemagne]

When are we going to see blood and gore - like burning tank crews or infantry men without legs and arms?

I realize that such an implementation would raise the age requirement for playing the game - but you could easily avoid that by creating a specific extra blood and gore dlc-thingie (like the one for some of the latest Total War games.)

[Childress]

When are we going to see blood and gore - like burning tank crews or infantry men without legs and arms?

You're on to something there, Atheist. Provocative concept! How about a graphic of a trooper, scared ****less, cowering in a foxhole and heaving his guts out? Or simply hung over on pilfered Bordeaux?

[Canada Guy]

Stikkypixie,

I also agree that having German troops react instantaneously would also be unrealistic. The Germans though did have a forward thinking tactical doctrine that did allow for more tactical flexibility than most armies especially in the 1940-1943 timeframe or for those units that went through their training in those years.

It just would feel not quite right to see my conscript t-34 trundle off on a shoot and scoot or do whatever I tell them to immediately. I am warming to the idea of limiting the action buttons for units with low experience. And maybe throw in something extra for inexperienced tank crews out of contact and no radio.

While tactical training may alleviate this somewhat in early German units, they should also experience this later in the war. It just may not be as pronounced.

[tankgeezer]

Uhhh…Okay, did I miss something a few pages back? The aforementioned Second Western Front, would that be the push up from Southern France (Operation Dragoon)?

[sburke]

Uhhh…Okay, did I miss something a few pages back? The aforementioned Second Western Front, would that be the push up from Southern France (Operation Dragoon)?

No that can already be done using CMFI. CMFI was supposed to get either another module to finish up or perhaps a pack.. or both. Here was what Steve had mentioned regarding 2014 and the next western front game

Thanks guys! A couple of quick comments:

2. 2014 will contain a lot of new stuff, including Packs for both Italy and Normandy. Definitely the new Modern era game and probably the second Western Front Family (Oct 44 - May 45)

Steve

[MikeyD]

All this talk about incompetent conscript Soviet troops seems somewhat misplaced for a Bagration timeframe. Mid-1944 is not 1941. Let's recall they did win the war, after all. Its going to be enough of a challenge manhandling unsplitable Russian squads without imposing a gamey command delay on top of it. If your troops are conscripts they're probably going to go to ground before they reach the destination anyway. But why would you be playing conscripts in mid-44? If you don't want your troops (on either side) to react instantly then just be slow at issuing orders. If you're playing realtime the command delay will be precisely as long as you delay giving your command.

[sburke]

Another one from Steve that I think also supports what MikeyD was saying. Interesting thought comparing tactical rigidity to command delays as implemented in CMx1. Also a comment that seems very appropriate, the Wehrmacht suffered it's own tactical rigidity issues that perhaps by 1944 were just as significant as those the Red Army suffered under.

I honestly don't remember if the Soviets were inherently slower than the Germans. But that wouldn't be the prime difference anyway. A historically correct average portrayal of a 1941 battle would have the Soviets with very poorly trained, but perhaps well motivated (perhaps not), units while the Germans generally had a lot of successful combat experience and extremely high morale (certain exceptions). Therefore, in a 1941 battle one would expect the Soviets to perform more poorly at the tactical level than the Germans simply because of fairly quantifiable variables for a specific battle.

But even if we did have differences in the base Command Delays, I think that is supportable given the well documented tactical rigidity of the Soviet doctrine. And it's yet another problem with Command Delays since tactical rigidity is not the same as Command Delays. The player should actually be PREVENTED from making moves, not just having them delayed. The Soviets got more flexible with this as the war went on, but it's something they never completely got rid of. And towards the end of the war the Germans were starting to suffer from "we were told to take this and we had better or there's a firing squad waiting for me if we don't".

Well, as I said the concept is itself flawed since it is arbitrary, inflexible, and really unsupportable from a historical standpoint. Any sort of command restriction system should be nationality neutral.

Steve

[Sequoia]

I don't have enough experience with the Italian armor from CMFI. Many of those are radioless. How do they play in game? I imagine they are out of command quite often. How does that effect gameplay? Do they get the word on spotted enemies much less quickly?

This would give us an idea of how Soviet armor would play.

[Vanir Ausf B]

It will be interesting to see is how BFC chooses to model Soviet indirect fire inflexibility. In most cases on-call support should be limited to on-map assets that have direct LOS to the spotter, with higher level fires limited to pre-planned barrages only. CMBB fudged this by allowing everything to be on-call, just with longer response times.