The start of actual news

[ASL Veteran]

Seems like trying to pack all the game engine development into one base game would significantly delay release until everything got in. I'd rather get one family per year than have to wait four years to get just one.

Michael

With the engine improvements effectively divorced from the game through the use of the upgrade system, you could just keep upgrading the base game as more improvements are added. I think the only thing that would require the use of the different base games would be if there were significant terrain differences ... to the point where the same terrain modelling system isn't used between base games. The maps are inherent to the base game and I think that's really what keeps CMFI and CMBN as separate and distinct base games.

[Michael Emrys]

^^ @ Kohlenklau

"...dudes with 6 arms and stuff..."

Would we find that under "rarities"?

They do represent problems in supplying them with uniforms, but they are hell on wheels once they get within grenade range.

Michael

[Ithikial_AU]

So, 2 years from now your buddy sends you a cool Stalingrad scenario/map and he has CMEF base + modules 1 thru 3, you only got something else and then your graphics has got dudes with 6 arms and stuff, right? Give you nightmares! Or maybe it just detects you aint got the goods and crashes....

In that type of situation I don't think you'd be able to play against each other to begin with. And yes I know for this next part only BF really knows the answer but almost everyone in this community appears to buy every module that's released if they like a particular theatre. I think EF fans and grogs would snap up every module that was released if they want some Jerry and Ruskie action.

Another benefit to one base for the EF is for the scenario designers. A lot of territory could be designed for use for more than one year. The thought of designing the same map for somewhere like a section of Kharkov over multiple base games is not pretty. The ability to simply change the date in the editor, made possible by having the correct modules installed, would be a nice touch and save time. It would also help pool all the maps for the east front and avoid the inevitable players saying 'Hey I like that map with the three hills wish it was in base game x.'

[sburke]

I used to think it would be great if there was only one game and everything else was modules (including theaters) because I'd like to be able to play "what if" scenarios.

Say like the Western Allies vs the USSR? Oh man I wish...

[sfhand]

That would be at the top of my list...

[Sublime]

That would be my ultimate CMx2 wet dream that I really do not expect to ever see. The only thing I want more I'll eventually see - regular EF.

Even the sheer variety of scenarios in just say 45-46 is mind boggling. You have the gamut - early 'western armistice' - germans turn on russians with west - May 45 US vs USSR - fall 45 same (with perhaps lower US troop levels for Pacific and demob.) etc etc.

What'd be cool too is they could run a parallel NATO vs Warsaw Pact Fulda Gap 85 (or 78, 67,72, 84, whatever)

[GSX]

What'd be cool too is they could run a parallel NATO vs Warsaw Pact Fulda Gap 85 (or 78, 67,72, 84, whatever)

That would be my ultimate modernish type of game. I thought this would have been one of the biggest sellers. Main game would be US Vs Warpac forces and then you could have a huge amount of Modules with Brit, German, Dutch, French just to name some NATO ones, not to mention non Soviet Warsaw pact. I would buy them all as well and Im sure the market is there for this type of CM. Sadly, it doesnt even seem to be considered.

[iMolestCats]

That would be my ultimate modernish type of game. I thought this would have been one of the biggest sellers. Main game would be US Vs Warpac forces and then you could have a huge amount of Modules with Brit, German, Dutch, French just to name some NATO ones, not to mention non Soviet Warsaw pact. I would buy them all as well and Im sure the market is there for this type of CM. Sadly, it doesnt even seem to be considered.

There would be HUGE interest in this. Like you said TONS of content for Nato and WP. I would love a game like that. 10/10 would buy.

[Baneman]

There would be HUGE interest in this. Like you said TONS of content for Nato and WP. I would love a game like that. 10/10 would buy.

Have to agree. Even though I've never been a Moderns wargamer, a CM Fulda-Gap-what-if would get my money too.

Although to be fair, the scenarios would ( you'd think ) almost always have to be quite large. How would attack helicopters be represented ?

[iMolestCats]

Have to agree. Even though I've never been a Moderns wargamer, a CM Fulda-Gap-what-if would get my money too.

Although to be fair, the scenarios would ( you'd think ) almost always have to be quite large. How would attack helicopters be represented ?

Hmm good question. If this is even put into development it would probably be around the time of a new engine upgrade. A whole new system for helicopters would have to be implemented due to their wide usage at the time. Something of along the lines of an AA system for MANPADs and short range air to ground missiles so the helicopters could be taken out, then you would think the helicopter would have to show up on map and actually have it pop flares, maneuver, adjust for terrain, and select targets (This could be fixed by something similar to a cover arc but instead called a "Killbox" you could just drag the box on any area of the map and the heli will engage targets). Then there is the problem of getting the helicopter AI to move around on the map and possibly fly into hostile ground forces, but maybe have the heli controllable but with certain constrictions.

Really i don't know, i made this up in my head just now.

[nik mond]

Hmm good question. If this is even put into development it would probably be around the time of a new engine upgrade. A whole new system for helicopters would have to be implemented due to their wide usage at the time. Something of along the lines of an AA system for MANPADs and short range air to ground missiles so the helicopters could be taken out, then you would think the helicopter would have to show up on map and actually have it pop flares, maneuver, adjust for terrain, and select targets (This could be fixed by something similar to a cover arc but instead called a "Killbox" you could just drag the box on any area of the map and the heli will engage targets). Then there is the problem of getting the helicopter AI to move around on the map and possibly fly into hostile ground forces, but maybe have the heli controllable but with certain constrictions.

Really i don't know, i made this up in my head just now.

TOW Korea had helicopters as troop carriers. There was a lot of speculation how this would pan out for similar reasons. Used the same engine as TOW 2 which was WW2. They were implemented fine as far as their purpose goes. You loaded a squad, they hovered to nap of the earth, you flew them usually to a flank LZ, dropped off your squad. I don't recall but I think there were alternate elevations you could choose. Sure some were shot down. Helos not a big deal, but it would make sense to have them on larger maps.

[sburke]

My Bet - Charles would donate his left nut to the church of scientology and allow them to remove it with rusty pliers and his right nut to Seaworld where they would dangle him over the Orca tank and allow it to feed itself before he'd consider doing helicopters on map. Actually maybe he would donate Steve's....

Shame really. That Orca feeding might be cool to watch.

[nik mond]

.....All that over what amounts to a halftrack that floats in the air?

[sburke]

.....All that over what amounts to a halftrack that floats in the air?

That sounds deceptively simple..... oh wait, that's because it doesn't even begin to describe what it would take to do this. Imagine the first time your flying halftrack gets taken out by a tank main gun round when it is flying directly overhead of said tank.... That could happen right now. I suspect lots of things need to be sorted out in the current engine before on map aircraft of any kind are going to make an appearance.

One of the issues cited in CMSF was I believe the ineffective capabilities of recon units with boom mounted sensors as the game couldn't accurately portray their spotting capabilities. I don't believe that was ever addressed. That same issue would show up for recon chopper units as well.

Don't get me wrong I would absolutely love to see this as the first mod I would want is to depict the Battle of Ia Drang. I just think it is fraught with far more complications than considering it just a flying halftrack implies. Hmm right there is an issue we already have that folks would like to see working different - resupply. Would we be happy that a chopper would have to land and have a unit board to acquire ammo?

[Sequoia]

I agree we're never likely to see on screen troop carrying helicopters, though Charles' nuts are safe either way. It's taken longer than I expected to get fire and anti-aircraft fire as we had in CMX1, though when we do I'm sure it will be superior. The CMX1 series was groundbreaking but a lot of things in it were done half ass just to get them into the game. They don't want to do anything half ass in Cmx2. And anyway, I don't think troop carrying helicoptors would be more prevalent in a Fulda Gap game than they would be in CMSF or CM:Black Sea.

[iMolestCats]

I would be more than happy to see just a simple attack helicopter come in on map hover near your forces and start shooting at ground units in a certain area then have enemy SPAAGs shoot it down, thats all i would really need.

[The Steppenwulf]

. And anyway, I don't think troop carrying helicoptors would be more prevalent in a Fulda Gap game than they would be in CMSF or CM:Black Sea.

Exactly.

Whilst, the influence of heli ground support must be represented in any modern game, I suspect something along the modelling of ground support as it works in CM2 currently is what we are looking at for the Black Sea franchise. The 3d modelling of one type of air asset cannot be made without taking account of the effect upon the entire 3d battle space.

Whilst Steve answered, quite predictably to my query, that there are no plans for theatres beyond those confirmed; Black Sea and CMSF2, I'd still be surprised if we don't get treated to the 'cold war' theatre eventually - if not CM2 then CM3.

[YankeeDog]

I would be more than happy to see just a simple attack helicopter come in on map hover near your forces and start shooting at ground units in a certain area then have enemy SPAAGs shoot it down, thats all i would really need.

Thing is, they wouldn't be "on map hover[ing] near your forces," at least not usually.

Most of the weapons systems on airframes like the AH-64 have effective ranges measured in multiple kilometers, and this standoff range is one of an attack helicopter's primary defenses against MANPADS and other AA threats.

So if attack helicopters were actually represented graphically in CM, usually what you would see would be a little black dot a km or two off the map edge, lobbing in rockets and/or cannon shells. This is even more true now that virtually all of the weapons systems are going "smart", or at least precision-targeted.

In the fighting over the past decade in Iraq and Afghanistan, attack helicopters have sometimes come in closer, and idled over the battlefield longer. This is largely because the insurgent enemy in Iraq and Afghanistan have had only very a few (and generally older generation) MANPADS.

Once you start trying to model a conflict where one side is carrying current generation Stingers, and the other side current generation Iglas, the attack helicopters just aren't going to risk loitering over the battlefield like vultures looking for a carcass; that would be suicide. They're going to give themselves as much distance buffer as they can, and stay close to terrain features that allow them to break visual contact quickly if they need to.

[Michael Emrys]

The Apache Longbow has some interesting capabilities. From Wikipedia:

The AH-64D Apache Longbow, is equipped with an advanced sensor suite and a glass cockpit. The main improvement over the A-variant is the dome installed over the main rotor, housing the AN/APG-78 Longbow millimeter-wave fire-control radar (FCR) target acquisition system and the Radar Frequency Interferometer (RFI). The raised position of the radome enables the detection of targets and launching of missiles while the helicopter is behind obstacles (e.g. terrain, trees or buildings). The AN/APG-78 is capable of simultaneously tracking 128 targets and engaging the 16 most dangerous ones, and can initiate an attack within 30 seconds, while passing data on the other targets to other Longbow Apaches via data link. The data link is housed in a radio modem integrated with the sensor suite allows data to be shared with ground units and other D-models; allowing them to fire on targets detected by a single helicopter.

Meaning that one helo can detect and assign targets to other helos while they are out of sight of the enemy, then pop up, fire their missiles and then pop down again before taking any return fire. At least, that's the theory.

Michael

[nik mond]

That sounds deceptively simple..... oh wait, that's because it doesn't even begin to describe what it would take to do this. Imagine the first time your flying halftrack gets taken out by a tank main gun round when it is flying directly overhead of said tank.... That could happen right now. I suspect lots of things need to be sorted out in the current engine before on map aircraft of any kind are going to make an appearance.

One of the issues cited in CMSF was I believe the ineffective capabilities of recon units with boom mounted sensors as the game couldn't accurately portray their spotting capabilities. I don't believe that was ever addressed. That same issue would show up for recon chopper units as well.

Don't get me wrong I would absolutely love to see this as the first mod I would want is to depict the Battle of Ia Drang. I just think it is fraught with far more complications than considering it just a flying halftrack implies. Hmm right there is an issue we already have that folks would like to see working different - resupply. Would we be happy that a chopper would have to land and have a unit board to acquire ammo?

Always with the negative waves Sburke always with the negative waves.

If oddball's speaker equipped Sherman could float it would be as Col Kilgore's attack Huey incarnate playin rise of the valkries. But that'll never happen as long as we have these negative waves.

[sburke]

Always with the negative waves Sburke always with the negative waves.

If oddball's speaker equipped Sherman could float it would be as Col Kilgore's attack Huey incarnate playin rise of the valkries. But that'll never happen as long as we have these negative waves.

LOL okay I hear ya...I ought to I am sitting next to that damn speaker of Oddball's.

[Redwolf]

I would be more than happy to see just a simple attack helicopter come in on map hover near your forces and start shooting at ground units in a certain area then have enemy SPAAGs shoot it down, thats all i would really need.

That might have worked for Vietnam, but modern helicopters have way too much standoff range. The maps are just too small if you want to be realistic and allow picking a position at that standoff range (as opposed to the diagonal map line being the only option).

[womble]

In the current CMx2 games, both sides could, potentially, have air support at the same time. How would that fit into attack helos over the battlefield?

[noxnoctum]

I don't know much about MG. How's the terrain? More hedgegrows or is it more interesting?

[YankeeDog]

I don't know much about MG. How's the terrain? More hedgegrows or is it more interesting?

Well, personally I find hedgerows a pretty interesting tactical problem. But regardless, no bocage in the low country; bocage is a terrain feature pretty much unique to Normandy.

Polder, very low-lying agricultural land reclaimed from the sea, was a common terrain feature during MG that presented problems for the Allied advance -- Very flat, and generally wet since it was so low-lying and therefore difficult passage for vehicles. Elevated roads and dykes are fairly common terrain features in polder country. The elevated roads provided good passage, but were also very exposed, making vehicles on them easy targets.

But not all of the fighting in MG took place in polder -- among other things, especially in and near Arnhem, there was much more urban fighting than anywhere in Normandy.

And, of course, much larger rivers, with big-ass bridges.

Presumably, the module can also be used to portray fighting in the ETO in the September - November time frame that was not part of Market Garden, such as the fighting in the Alsace-Lorraine in November (e.g., the Battle of Arracourt, in late September). The terrain around Arracourt was generally much more open than in Normandy, though certainly not wide-open tank country like the Russian Steppe.

And there's Aachen in October. Urban and dense forest fighting. Lots of pillbox-cracking. Might or might not be your cup of tea, but definitely not Normandy.

And the clearing of the Scheldt estuary... not sure how easy it would be to model this fighting with CMx2 in its current state, though, as flame weapons (specificaly Wasps) and amphibious vehicles both played a very important role in the Battle for the Scheldt and Walcheren Island, and CMx2 doesn't model either of these, yet.