ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[herr_oberst]

Heh heh - I don't think Bil has a gamey bone in his body, he's a Military Man. Heck, he comes up the centre every battle, spurning the obvious gamey benefits of the flanks

Well, as I said, the Bunker Is Spotted incident caused a lot more LOSing around the map. This uncovered the fact that an MMG posted in a nearby building, supposed to be covering the Left Approach Valley is also exposed to Hill 130:

looks OK, unless you know what you're looking for. In fact:

Oh man! Those guys are quietly out of there, I can tell you

It was a while ago that I was not so gently 'reminded' of the "screen door" effect. From farther away, the screen quite effectively masks what's on the other side, but up close, there's all sorts of little holes to see through.

It's only half what you can see. The other half (who can see you) is equally, if not more, important. Always manages to bite me somehow when I'm trying to site a defense, but it's nigh on impossible to scout out every potential vantage point on a map.

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of a quote from Patton (which I'm probably going to botch). He told a junior officer to "Drive up that road until someone shoots you then come back and report what you saw." ...or words to that effect.

[Vinnart]

Heh heh - I don't think Bil has a gamey bone in his body, he's a Military Man. Heck, he comes up the centre every battle, spurning the obvious gamey benefits of the flanks

I am a military man, and find nothing “gamey” about using the flanks as it simulates flanking. The reality of this combat is there is an edge that will never go away no matter how big the map, and in reality someone is always on the furthest edge of the contact otherwise there would be nothing known as flanking. I say adapt to the unique combat of this arena as an MMA fighter learns to adapt to the unique hand to hand combat environment of the octagon. Adapt to it, as it will never adapt to you. If the attacker uses the edge to try to flank, learn to use the edge of the arena to advantage in defense to counter the strategy. When water goes into a cup it becomes the cup. When a strategist goes into Combat Mission, he becomes Combat Mission. Don’t think it politically incorrect to move troops near the edge as there always is an edge unless infinity.

GaJ, Enjoying this AAR like episodes of a good show to follow. Good luck in the battle.

[GreenAsJade]

Seeing these Ht's moving down that ridge road, I am just wondering what makes Bil doing such a risky move. I don't know what he might be seeing for attempting it.

Well, I'd say he's trying to clear the way for tanks coming up the middle.

We've just learned that ATGs are easy to spot, and it's almost a given for him that I have ATGs watching over this approach. Which I do (one). Until I get rid of the HTs, he's sitting there with eyes on my midfield, and probably it's the ATG that will get spotted first.

Fortunately, it seems that the HT has not come far enough forwards to spot the ATG ... at least, my ATG can't see his HT.

The strange thing is that the HT's stopped this turn. As if to say "here I am, come and get me". As far as I know, the only thing that they can see from where they are is a mortar on Hill 153 - which got wacked by the barrage on the east ridge That barrage intensified this turn, but fortunately did not come far enough up the ridge to catch the ATG or M10 in that vicinity.

[GreenAsJade]

I am a military man, and find nothing “gamey” about using the flanks as it simulates flanking.

I completely agree. If nothing else, it simulates in an abstract way the friendly support from neighboring units not represented in the battle.

I was just stirring up Bil, who will surely eventually read this thread. It's a funny kind of conversation that we have: each participant in the conversation has to say their whole part of it before hearing the other guy's part

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

One impression that I have right now is that Bil is a little bit flumoxed through lack of intel - his attack has stalled for a moment. As I mentioned, his HT's just stopped. And, he's spent time and resources chasing my Sniper on Right Tit. The Brumbar turned side on to the main battle to continue firing shells in the general area of the sniper. And an HT came down from behind the Tit and opened fire:

I presume this guy is a goner next turn. Bil must be very concerned to free up his KW scout.

Over behind left Tit the HT's mowed down the sniper then continued to wizz off in the direction of the west ridge. It looks like he's splitting his forces looking for a good option to pursue.

[GreenAsJade]

However, he won't be flumoxed for long . This turn delivered it's own "WTF?!" ...

Bil's right wing KW man has moved all the way from his car in the woods up to the west ridge without being spotted, despite all those eyes on that completely open space!

This is a drama for me, because from where that sound contact is, he can see right up the gob of the mid-field keyholes:

... and as we know, ATGs, bunkers and presumably tanks are easy to spot!

[GreenAsJade]

(A brief moment on this point, kinda in defence of my defence plan. Before the game I did some tests, running tanks up this approach route, and my ATG got 4 or 5 shots off before being spotted by them, despite there being 4-5 tanks that were opened up until they came under fire. So I had some reason to think that the ATG was hard to spot ... wrong as that turns out to be!)

[GreenAsJade]

That's not the only headache I've been served up this turn. Have a look at this:

Um... thanks Charles! A blue line that goes right through a tree.

This is strikingly similar to the JgPz firing decision. If I fire, it will hit the tree and give myself away. If it don't fire, the Elefant presumably will spot me like the JgPz did, and I'm given away anyhow.

Plus... moving past the tree that's in the way...

[GreenAsJade]

... there's another tree in the way!

And, the Elefant is at the perfect "bad" angle.

I know for a fact (having tried it) that the 76mm can punch a hole in the side of the Elefant, but not the front. It can also damage the optics and even the gun relatively frequently.

But with the side at an angle like that, the shell will likely ricochet if it hits, and the front is at a low presentation.

As the Sea Witch says ... "life's full of tough choices"!

[permanent666]

how many chances will you get to hit the Elefant on its side?

[Michael Emrys]

(A brief moment on this point, kinda in defence of my defence plan. Before the game I did some tests, running tanks up this approach route, and my ATG got 4 or 5 shots off before being spotted by them, despite there being 4-5 tanks that were opened up until they came under fire. So I had some reason to think that the ATG was hard to spot ... wrong as that turns out to be!)

Clearly, Bil has hacked the game code.

Michael

[ASL Veteran]

I'll go on record as saying I would definitely take that shot if it's stopped there. If he is still moving forward and you think you can line up a better one then I might wait, but otherwise it's too much of a game difference maker to pass it up. If you can take out the Elefant that's just too big of a piece on the table to not have an impact on his side. On your side it's one ATG so the value of what you are risking is much less than the value of what you could be destroying ..... that's my take.

[GreenAsJade]

... and of course, I will be taking the shot

I mean, how often do you get to shoot at an Elefant, even if it's just a glancing blow to it's rear?

Maybe, just maybe, it won't spot me as I fire. There's a chance.

Maybe I'll even do some damage.

Maybe Bil's artillery can't quickly reach that far back on the Hill 172 ridge, so my ATG can live a little longer ... at the very least, he has to spend time doing that.

I'm glad to have your support for this decision

It will be interesting to see what happens in any case.

However, note that this is at 1400m through two trees, so when it all goes pear shaped I guess no-one will be surprised, and I will be left to curse the rotten fates, handing me such a tantalising long shot

GaJ

(the Elefant is stopped, it's busy firing down on the right ridge)

[Freyberg]

Taking the shot...! AWESOME !!!!

[GreenAsJade]

Yeah, well, a saner commander might resist the temptation, but really the JgPz experience was telling: even if it's a long shot, if you don't take it, then he's gunna get you anyhow!

[sburke]

It looks like your LOF goes through the branches, not necessarily the trunk. If you can get an immobilization, then a kill is guaranteed and a side shot like that... Yeah I'd have to go for it. If the fates are against you so be it. Besides at a minimum the rude shock may make him even more cautious.

[womble]

At 1400m, up to its wheels in grass, not moved since setup, through tree foliage, I don't think the Heffalump will spot even a firing 76 very quickly.

[TheVulture]

At 1400m, up to its wheels in grass, not moved since setup, through tree foliage, I don't think the Heffalump will spot even a firing 76 very quickly.

But something else might...

[Freyberg]

A knockout on that behemoth would a classic! and hilarious !!

[snake_eye]

I am not sure that the ATG will hit the Elefant. The trees might deflect the AP round. But that is a risk that I would consider taking. A side shot might not be possible for some time.

One thing that needs some answers is the LOS behaviour.

Playing CMBN “Dusty roads 7th” a very good scenario BTW, I lost an M8 Howitzer a Jeep armed with a 50 and 90% of a team to some Germans troopers hidden behind a thick hedgerow. No warning of their presence was given besides grenades falling on and around the M8 (the crew bailed out and was promptly killed). In my next attempt with the Jeep, that was close, covering (that was what should have been done!) the M8 and with a nearby Stuart coming to the rescue, both did not return fire in the hedgerow even at close distance. Too bad, a Stuart canister round would have been highly appropriate. I watched the replays quite a few times and besides a much diluted German Icon not easily seen among the hedgerow there was nothing else.

Why the Germans were able to fire without even being seen during two turns?

Another thing was that my artillery FO was able to see an ATG at the end of a road from 300 meters while being in a very thick hedgerow. He was not seen, but a squad earlier at the same place had been spotted by the ATG and hence moved farther away.

That is why I am very cautious with LOS. You can have a good one and not been seen and on the contrary have none and be seen, which is the worst case.

[GreenAsJade]

Yes. "Have LOS" does not mean "spotted/can see".

GaJ

[Vinnart]

Taking that shot on the Elefant certainly is a dilemma. The range looks far so what are the chances of a hit with penetration through all those trees? Tough call. I can’t say I would take it or not without more experience of ATG vs Elefant, and better situational awareness of the map. Perhaps I would leave it to the ATG AI to fire or not.

[MikeyD]

Everybody cringes at getting the dreaded 'gun hit' but in the case of the massively armored Elephant there's only so much a defender can do. Besides breaking a track or hoping he immobilizes himself, there's the option of presenting him with so many targets to kill you run him out of ammo. But that sound prohibitively expensive.

[slysniper]

When it comes to taking the shot, It depends how close your target line is to the trunks of those trees. If its very close your odds are high that you will get a tree burst, if its just in the leaves of the trees, the odds are high you will have no problems. So have you tested the flanking shot at 1400 meters, that is a pretty good distance, I would want to know my chances of what likely would happen before making the choice.

So if the tree burst it not likely, I would still fire if the odds of hitting is high, a immobilized tank is all you need and there appears to be a good chance for that if nothing else.

Where is your Quad AA HT action, Bil posted it from his side. Anyway good job, So you did back it up to engage, like you tested??