ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[GreenAsJade]

I had done some tests before the game, and had ATGs not spotted after a couple of shots, let alone just sitting there.

But what I hadn't done is had the tank under test just sit and watch for a few turns. I guess this is the conditions under which they spot well.

It's a shame I didn't put the ATG on Right Tit, in anticipation of the obvious tank-in-overwatch on Hill 130 like that. But, as I've said a few times, hindsight is easy. I was actually expecting Right Tit to be overrun _before_ any tanks started watching further from Hill 130. The only thing I would have done differently so far is test an ATG against a reverse sloped JgPz to see if it would actually punch a hole. I was going by past (long past) experience with Hetzers, that look a lot lie JgPzs, and shrug frontal shells of that sloped armour like they're just bullets...

GaJ

[Vark]

Surely if you said no LOS determination beyond this line, for deployment and no LOS beyond the foremost unit. it would be quite easy. The deployment zones stop you going beyond the boundaries, why not the source of LOS determination?

Bill might make a map, but that does not mean he has carefully scrutinised each AP to see what he could see from there. My objection is pretty simple, why are you able, during deployment, to see what the defender sees? After action accounts are littered with instances of attackers failing to appreciate the exact lie of the land until it is too late. If the defender had time, he should always have an advantage, as he will be able to walk the ground, before planning his defence, noting areas of dead ground, possible defilades and key hole positions.

Would be nice if eventually you were allowed observation from any deployed unit, then have to use a map graphic to work out what was on the 'other side of the hill'.

[Michael Emrys]

If the defender had time, he should always have an advantage, as he will be able to walk the ground, before planning his defence, noting areas of dead ground, possible defilades and key hole positions.

True. On the other hand, depending on how long the attacker had to prepare, he might have engaged in extensive patrolling to discover the most critical features, even including the disposition of defender's forces.

Would be nice if eventually you were allowed observation from any deployed unit, then have to use a map graphic to work out what was on the 'other side of the hill'.

Since that is already what I do when I play, I could live with that. I will frequently "walk" the camera over ground that I intend to advance over, and may look back from certain key points to see how it would look to a defender. I am not nearly as methodical or thorough as Bil however, and I have virtually never used the LOS tool for that.

Perhaps a usable compromise would have limits depending on what kind of game you are playing. For a meeting engagement or probe one would be strictly limited as you suggest. If you are playing an attack, then a little more pregame recon using the LOS tool might be permitted; if an assault, still more.

Michael

[John Kettler]

Vark,

In an earlier version of my post (before the computer it), I made the same sort of argument, using wargaming practice for both professional military and hobbyist board and miniature gaming. I was talking about setting up behind a curtain or box top, after which the forces were revealed. Initial move plots were made based on recon info or by topo map analysis, where applicable. I think limiting LOS to what the forward units can see and permitting only map recon pre battle is the way to go, as opposed to a leisurely all-angles stroll through hostile territory. Exceptions might be made to represent hard intel on specific features, but I think the overall idea is sound. Implementable in-game? Don't know.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vark]

I'd love a game that had a pre-game recce phase, and from their final positions LOS could be drawn and enemy positions mapped, even though they might not know they had been detected. How disconcerting it would be to have your reverse slope ATG's KO'd by a mortar strike, because a patrol spotted them, in the scouting phase! It certainly would punish defenders who had no outposts before their defensive line.

Michael I was thinking roughly the same thing, with perhaps pre-agreed recce points, where LOS can be sourced from, could be bought like TRP's are now, the number and location (perhaps dividing the map into zones) depending on the tactical posture of both units.

John, ever play this game? http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7112/nato-division-commander

[GreenAsJade]

First let me touch on one of the ongoing mysteries, that's off to the side so to speak - another shell landed in the rear-midfield...

... this one landed in almost exactly the same place as the previous one, un-characteristic of spotting rounds. Last turn I thought Bil was spotting for the hil behind, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe he is prep-harrassing this mid-field area that is in the ideal position for defending forces that come left of centre into my midfield.

Only time will tell.

[GreenAsJade]

Back at the main game, in the centre, I still don't see any infantry on Left Tit!

Instead, an HT popped it's head over the ridgeline, spotted by my MMG laying down fire near the barbed wire:

The HT retreated again ... more as if it had been given shoot and scoot orders than as if it were running away scared of my guys (it's retreat didn't coincide with any burst of fire, and I don't think the fire even went near it).

Since I know that those HTs were carrying men, it's a given that they are up there somewhere. With Bil still tentatively exploring this side of the Tit, it seems this part of my plan is doing it's main job - chewing up his time, while delivering intel on where his forces are, without needlessly losing men defending the indefensible. As someone reminded me early in the AAR: he who defends everything defends nothing. So I'm successfully not defending something, yay

As to the intel - where are his forces: well, the the answer seems to be "mostly coming up the middle, not anywhere else", at least in the main. Which seems eminently sensible, since Bil can choose which side of the centre-ridge to go up with all his forces, and have me able to counter them with only one side of mine. Thank goodness for the mobility of the M10s and M16.

I had also hoped to inflict a small bit of damage as Bil took the Tits... this is something I'm yet to achieve.

It seems to me that Bil really has to explore around this side of the Left Tit... he can't leave it uncertain whether I'm there or not. Therefore, I'm going to lay down a bit more fire, and also have the sniper-below-the-ridge pop his head up and take a look. Who knows, if Bil has men hiding in the grass, taking cover from the MMG, then I might get the jump on them. And even if I don't, then I'll know for sure.

The lack of men on Left Tit may also mean that Bil concluded that it is basically unoccupied, and turned his attention to Right Tit, where he already fired on the Sniper. So I'm going to direct the mortar harrasment over that way. I can see (hear) that HTs have moved up there, so once again: where HTs are, surely men are too.

[GreenAsJade]

I'd love a game that had a pre-game recce phase, and from their final positions LOS could be drawn and enemy positions mapped, even though they might not know they had been detected. How disconcerting it would be to have your reverse slope ATG's KO'd by a mortar strike, because a patrol spotted them, in the scouting phase! It certainly would punish defenders who had no outposts before their defensive line.

Scenario designers can achieve this with reinforcement timing, to a certain extent.

Huzzar is a great example.

Of course, you can't put TRPs after the recce, but you certainly experience

the recce phase and make plans based on it.

GaJ

[John Kettler]

Vark,

No. I played Red Star White Star, Mech War and Fire Fight in my SPI NATO phase. I bought Mech War II, tried reading the rules and gave up in despair. Two books of nitty gritty rules in micro type, one for the system, the other for the game. Gah!

GreenAsJade,

If you can find the right position, I believe you have an excellent lawn mower at your disposal. All you need now are targets. No, not the Brummbar and the Elefant! Your pugnacity is commendable, but you really do need to choose your fights.

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

I guess you might be wondering what happened to that ATG also

Well, the JgPz backed away and was replaced by a Brummbar - which I guess will area fire this turn.

Of course, both snipers in the vicinity can see this guy. He's a bit further towards the centre, exposing his head just a little.

The right wing sniper still doesn't have a shot:

The centre sniper is still just below the outcrop he was heading over towards. From the top of there, he has a long-shot:

GaJ

[womble]

Surely if you said no LOS determination beyond this line, for deployment and no LOS beyond the foremost unit. it would be quite easy.

That's right. Ignore the points that people make and restate your own position. Great way to argue and persuade. Yeah.

[qutoe]The deployment zones stop you going beyond the boundaries, why not the source of LOS determination?

[GreenAsJade]

Hey, this is the encourage and cheer or jab and jeer GaJ thread, not the "argue about game design" thread!!

I can see we're quickly going to have to get some blowing up happening, before you guys go far off into the weeds

[newlife]

You can always move that quad 50 to perforate the kubelwagon! (As my earlier post was hinting at).

[Hister]

I can see we're quickly going to have to get some blowing up happening, before you guys go far off into the weeds

Well, I just hope the blowing-up part does not happen just on your side - I want Bil to take first battle casualty in this battle.

I didn't quite understood if you can shoot on that brumbar or not with your AT gun?

[GreenAsJade]

I think I'll take the first cas, for sure: the ATG, unless one of my mortar or MMG rounds hits a soldier giving me that honor before his Brummbar fires. Unlikely.

The ATG has not yet spotted the Brummbar (they are too busy cowering I think)... I'm sure they have LOS if they pop their heads up. I'm not counting on that happening though. I suggested to them that they might like to pop smoke, which if it happened might give them enough time to rally to shoot back, and stop the Brummbar from firing the area fire it's certainly being told to. But I suspect the Brummbar will fire before they can do anything...

This reminds me of an important lesson that I learn often but always seem to ignore in the next battle: NEVER EXPERIMENT "In hopes of luck".

This is exactly what that ATG up there facing forwards is: an experiment hoping for a lucky break. War doesn't deliver those on demand, unfortunately. As I was setting up, I let discipline slip for a moment and decided to take a chance. Bzzzt - he's dead. If you hear yourself saying "I'll take a chance with this one"... slap yourself

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

You can always move that quad 50 to perforate the kubelwagon! (As my earlier post was hinting at).

I'm not falling for the ole "Kubelwagon baits the M16" trick, no sir!!

[ASL Veteran]

Hey, this is the encourage and cheer or jab and jeer GaJ thread, not the "argue about game design" thread!!

I can see we're quickly going to have to get some blowing up happening, before you guys go far off into the weeds

I'll jab at you then - in an attempt to move the thread away from fantasy game mechanics. So, reverse slope defenses typically are close range affairs with longer range assets in strong supporting locations. I don't know if you can purchase scout teams in QB - I'll assume you can. Had you considered maybe taking a few scout teams in foxholes armed with Tommy guns and placing them within close range to the crests of one, the other, or both of the tits with the wire on your side but just behind the crest line? If they are close enough to the crest you could defend yourself from tanks with a bazooka team or grenades and the Tommy guns would mow down any infantry who tried to take the crest. It wouldn't take a very sizeable force to become a royal PITA for Bil. Maybe ten or fifteen men at most if ten of them are armed with Thompsons. You could then support that position with AT and MG assets from areas near where you are deployed now.

So I guess the question would be - do you think that maybe scout teams would have been a better purchase than sniper teams in this situation? Obviously the sniper teams fit into your pre battle plan, but now seeing how it's playing out do you think a couple of Tommy gun toting scout teams would have been more useful? I can't see any covered avenues of retreat for the sniper teams if Bil sets up a fire base on the tits so at this point it seems like they are just going to get mowed down without having much of an impact.

[GreenAsJade]

I deliberated "scouts-with-Tommy-guns or snipers?" for the Tits, for sure.

However, I thought that there was no point in putting anyone at all on the Tits, to defend them. I expected anyone sitting up on the Tits to be whacked by arty or direct fire 155s. And indeed we've seen that Bil was ready to do exactly this: he had the Brumbar lined up covering Right Tit, and presumably something equally big on the centre left (where I have a sound contact for a big tank).

I honestly don't think that a "modest force" of such thing would have been a PITA to Bil, at all.

I strongly doubt whether Bil would have let any force sitting on the Tits get a look at or more than a single shot at his scouts that approached them. It might or might not have created more delay than the empty Tits did, but the result would have been worse: more casualties to me, for minimal casualties to Bil.

That's why I instead chose the minimum unit to put as lookouts there - with a chance of pinging a TC if luck went my way, but otherwise basically zero-loss on my side for the same outcome: Bill spent some time taking the Tits.

If it takes him another couple of minutes to finish up with them, then that will be 20% of his whole time budget spent finding out absolutely nothing about my defenses, and inflicting zero damage (other than the ATG silliness, my own fault). A good deal, I think.

It is certainly true that it would be nice right now if the snipers creeping up to look at who's there on Left Tit were a Tommy wielding bunch of scouts instead, but I most certainly wasn't expecting to have to take this look-see to find out what's going on up there: that's been the biggest surprise so far: the way that inf is invisible in the grass it seems! It was really remarkable how that KW driver-scout disappeared as he stepped out of the KW, and I honestly can't believe that there aren't inf there somewhere in the LOS of the MMG/Mortars, who can see the whole of my side of Left Tit, and over onto Right Tit as well! I just hope this awesome concealment works as well for my hiding defenders as it appears to be doing for the attackers!

Thanks for the question - "to defend the Tits or not (and how)?" is certainly one of the big dilemmas that this scenario threw up...

GaJ

Edit: Note - there were actually two questions. One was "do I think I should have put scouts with Tommy guns in foxholes on the Tits?". The answer to this is "no". The other was "would I have been better with scouts than Snipers, in the role that I used those units for, as lookouts and opportunistic harrasers?". Yes, it seems clear I would have been better off with a Scout behind each Tit instead of a Sniper. It's turning out that the flanks are too far away for the Snipers to take pot shots at - I could have worked that out - wheras it would be nice to be able to hassle Bil now with Tommy guns in a blaze of glory for each unit, before death, that's for sure.

[womble]

I don't know if you can purchase scout teams in QB - I'll assume you can.

You can, indeed.

...a few scout teams in foxholes armed with Tommy guns...

It's a good thought, but I've always found myself disappointed in the number of SMGs US scout teams get. German scout teams seem to have a much higher proportion of SMG-armed members.

...fifteen men at most if ten of them are armed with Thompsons...

Of 5 three man scout teams, I would guess you'd be more likely to only have 5 tommy guns. Then there's the 'zook team(s) to make armour's life difficult. You'd probably get more bang for your buck with a proper infantry squad (including a BAR and a Thompson - or whatever high firepower teams Rangers break up into... ) split into teams, and maybe a MMG team, for your 15 men.

You could then support that position with AT and MG assets from areas near where you are deployed now.

I think the problem with this part is that there's nowhere to put things to fire at the crest(s) of the Tits that wouldn't be "in plain sight" of anything Bil has on his back edge.

...do you think a couple of Tommy gun toting scout teams would have been more useful? I can't see any covered avenues of retreat for the sniper teams if Bil sets up a fire base on the tits so at this point it seems like they are just going to get mowed down without having much of an impact.

Even having said what I've said above, you might have a point, since I can't see the snipers having any effect really. They provided a little intel, but a couple of scout teams would have done the same, for the loss of 2 extra men (you're right that getting exfiltrated from that position is going to be... problematic), with the distinct possibility of inflicting more casualties than the sniper teams will, and causing more delay and discombobulation.

[ASL Veteran]

I got an American scout team in the editor in CMFI and it came with two Tommy guns (they may have changed it or there might be a random factor) .... but either way.

[Rocky Balboa]

As I said ... easy to say in hindsight If I'd known I'd get spotted so easily, I certainly would have taken the shot instead of waiting for a better chance. C'est la guerre.

I agree, lots of Monday morning quarterbacking going on ... Maybe if this or similar situation comes up again you should give the thread an opportunity to make the call.

Should I fire or not? Would be interesting to see the outcome of that exercise ...

[Javaslinger]

I agree, lots of Monday morning quarterbacking going on ... Maybe if this or similar situation comes up again you should give the thread an opportunity to make the call.

Should I fire or not? Would be interesting to see the outcome of that exercise ...

Except most in the thread are reading the other thread....

[herr_oberst]

I agree, lots of Monday morning quarterbacking going on ... Maybe if this or similar situation comes up again you should give the thread an opportunity to make the call.

Should I fire or not? Would be interesting to see the outcome of that exercise ...

Certainty of death, *small* chance of success... What are we waiting for?

[Michael Emrys]

...(you're right that getting exfiltrated from that position [the two Tits] is going to be... problematic)...

Maybe, maybe not. If the tall grass is actually providing as much concealment as GaJ seems to think, that would help. And if GaJ's mortars would drop a couple of smoke bombs to cover their withdrawal, that should definitely help. I'd hazard a guess that they would definitely have a chance. But he couldn't let them hang around for more than a turn after first contact or that chance disappears once Bil is able to organize a methodical attack with support.

Michael

[Vark]

You can use the magnification function, but yes, the still quite crude terrain (compared to RL) does limit the intuitive understanding of the lie of the land. I still balk at the ability of an attacker to be able to view behind ridges, to see what the defender can see, totally unrealistic.

Before telling me to read other posts follow the same advice, I'm agreeing with your reasoning, my objection is still not answered. In real life, the commander would have a basic map which gave far less topographical info than being able to roam around your enemies frontline, whatever the resolution on screen.

GAJ, do you think your AT gun would have survived longer, if you had entrenched it?