ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[c3k]

LOL! And if GaJ had fired his heretofore unspotted ATG, and the round had ricocheted, or missed, he would've been lambasted for lack of fire discipline. Lose-lose, no matter what for GaJ and his ATG. The only chance for GaJ would've been to open fire, at a tough angle, and get an unlikely kill. (JgPzIV front armor, reclined on an incline is INSANE!! ) He had to've hit the small portion of lower armor just barely visible. Not likely...

Given the position of the ATG, and the inability to re-crew it, he did the best he could.

The question for GaJ is, now that you've lost that ATG, will you take any action to beef up that side? Or, do you think you should keep the defensive plan in place?

What do you think Bil will do next? How will you counter it? When are you planning a dashing counterattack to capture Bil? Will you parade him in chains after capture?

MOAR!

[Baneman]

LOL! And if GaJ had fired his heretofore unspotted ATG, and the round had ricocheted, or missed, he would've been lambasted for lack of fire discipline. Lose-lose, no matter what for GaJ and his ATG. The only chance for GaJ would've been to open fire, at a tough angle, and get an unlikely kill. (JgPzIV front armor, reclined on an incline is INSANE!! ) He had to've hit the small portion of lower armor just barely visible. Not likely...

Given the position of the ATG, and the inability to re-crew it, he did the best he could.

Totally agree - one of the things that has previously kept me out of the AAR game is the thought of the merciless second-guessery that would be sure to follow any error

The question for GaJ is, now that you've lost that ATG, will you take any action to beef up that side? Or, do you think you should keep the defensive plan in place?

It's my experience that unless the defensive line is completely collapsing, tinkering with the plan always does more harm than good.

I'm an inveterate tinkerer and it almost always costs me dear.

[GreenAsJade]

Before telling me to read other posts follow the same advice, I'm agreeing with your reasoning, my objection is still not answered. In real life, the commander would have a basic map which gave far less topographical info than being able to roam around your enemies frontline, whatever the resolution on screen.

GAJ, do you think your AT gun would have survived longer, if you had entrenched it?

As far as I know, you can't entrench guns to any benefit in CMx2.

I did some tests firing 75mm at guns in and not in foxholes myself - they appear to offer no protection to ATGs.

I asked around, and the response I got was that it's the same with trenches.

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

LOL! And if GaJ had fired his heretofore unspotted ATG, and the round had ricocheted, or missed, he would've been lambasted for lack of fire discipline.

Yep

Lose-lose, no matter what for GaJ and his ATG

I think there were two real loses. 1) Putting it there in the first place. 2) Not testing whether it would punch a back-sloped JgPz at that range before deciding not to fire.

At the moment, no-one knows whether I was right or not... if I had tested, then we'd all know. I might go do it, if I have a quiet moment.

GaJ

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

Craters helped. At least they did in the CMBN Demo. There, one of my 57s got a kill before the crew was scythed down by HMG-42s.

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

True - I too have put ATGs in craters to apparent advantage. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to buy any craters.

On the original question - the other problem of putting a trench there, even if it helped the gun, is that it would have likely got shelled immediately. I would have to have to have bought enough trenches to have enough fake ones to make this prohibitive, which would not have been worth the cost.

I'm quite happy with the diagnosis of "doh, don't put guns on the front line facing forwards, you already knew that was a bad idea when you did it!". ATGs belong in keyholes with side facing opportunities. Of course, I really did not expect to get spotted until I fired, so that was a lesson, and makes my original mistaken placement more understandable.

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

I had a brief chance to look at the next movie this morning (how could I resist? )

Remarkably, it really does appear as if there are no men on Left Tit. My sniper has climbed up to peek, and sees nothing. Wow. Maybe I have successfully defended Left Tit by not being there If Bil has truly passed right by, that would be pretty funny. But of course he hasn't... HT sounds are still around the place, so it's a matter of "what is he leaving to keep claim on the VL, and where is that thing?". I am thinking of sneaking the sniper back down out of harms way and letting trouble pass by before going for another look.

Similarly, on Right Tit - plenty of eyes on it, but nothing to see!

More later...

[GreenAsJade]

Upon closer inspection, its clearer what has happened: Bil has pulled off the Left Tit in anticipation of counter strike - probably expecting a barrage following the single mortar round I landed in that area last turn. All the HTs in that area reversed out.

He pushed up towards Right Tit instead. I wonder what he will make of the mortar rounds that landed there this turn - will he think "oh, barrage adjustment", or "pah - this is just a single mortar tube harrassing me".

Either way, this remains all good: he's spending more time here.

The sniper is surveying an abandoned VL...

In other news, Bil continues to send harrasing mortar fire into the Left Approach Valley

.. he must have a TRP for that purpose! If he keeps going, I can work out the diameter of harrasing fire circle, and stay clear of that TRPed zone

And of course, the ATG died. I can see the two tanks on Hill 130 continuing to adjust their postions, but nothing else significant to report. I have to conclude that the bulk of Bil's force remain in the invisible zone close in to the Tits.

It's interesting that I still haven't spotted the KW scout. Either he is moving stealthily through the grass, which is providing fantastic concealment even while he's moving, or he simply jumped out of the car then settled down motionless, to remain unspotted.

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

Yay. I'm not sure how often I'll have the opportunity to cheer, so I might as well make the most of it.

Moving the Sniper up to take a look at the Tits paid off.

What they found was:

- There really do appear to be men on Left Tit. At least, it sure sounds like it. There are two sound contacts right in the area at the end of the barbed wire that my MMG has been firing into. Amazingly, I _still_ can't see them: if they are there, they must have their heads down!

Further evidence that they are really there is that some smoke popped out: you can see it as it's blowing away in the wind in that picture. It sure looks like troop-popped smoke.

- There are targets underneath my mortar fire (top left of the picture above). Yay.

As another example of how fickle the LOS is, here's what it looks like from the Mortar's point of view:

You can see that they can see the end of the wire on Right Tit, but they haven't spotted the HT or the man that lept out of it, which you can see that the Sniper can see. Zooming in from the mortar location, both the HT and the man are obscured by bushes.

Here's what the current battle zone looks like:

There are actually 3 more rounds in the air from the mortar heading for the current target. That's probably as many as can do any harm, because those targets will likely be heading out of there as fast as they can.

Last time Bil's HTs were near a mortar round, he backed them up 100m or so. So I'm going to adjust the mortar backwards as far as I can see, which might be just enough to catch him if that's what he does. Seems worth a shot.

(An alternative would be to bug-out both the Mortar and the MMG right now. I need to be ready to run soon, but I couldn't

resist another turn of firing while nothing is shooting back )

Nothing else significant to report - another harrassment shell fell in my back zone, it sounded bigger this time. Maybe it's even spotting for a major bombardment of Hill 172. Not much point in trying to out guess this: it could be anything.

GaJ

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

Since the maps are late, being still at the printer, G2 sent over this aerial, courtesy of the Army Air Corps. As you can see, your defensive possibilities would be greater were the terrain more granular and rough, as shown in the image.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/smallunit/smi-05.JPG

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vark]

I remember in CM1 days AT guns in rough terrain were unspotted till they fired, or infantry were very close, CM2 seems to be far unkinder for concealment purposes.

[MikeyD]

I believe CMx2 distinguishes between 'big' AT gun and 'small' AT guns. It's kind'a difficult to keep hidden an 88 pak43, M5 3 inch gun, and 17 pdr. The little Italian Breda 47mm, by contrast, gets extra concealment points for lacking a gin shield and being emplaced without wheels.

[Hister]

Nice map find John Kettler! Indeed the actual terrain as sugested by this photo does seem much more "rough" then in-game map shows it to be.

[Seedorf81]

Nice map find John Kettler! Indeed the actual terrain as sugested by this photo does seem much more "rough" then in-game map shows it to be.

I couldn't see no AT-gun at all!

[GreenAsJade]

Yeah - it might have been easier for the real defense to put an ATG where I did ... and the real defence was done at night as well

Still, the fact remains that it was a goofy place to put the ATG, so the less said about it now the better!

GaJ

[Michael Emrys]

Nice map find John Kettler! Indeed the actual terrain as sugested by this photo does seem much more "rough" then in-game map shows it to be.

The irregularities appear linear. Were the hillsides terraced?

Michael

[Seedorf81]

Yeah - it might have been easier for the real defense to put an ATG where I did ... and the real defence was done at night as well

Still, the fact remains that it was a goofy place to put the ATG, so the less said about it now the better!

GaJ

I do not agree. In order to cover important ground you have to make decisions. AT's can't be made invisible in the game. If only your crew would have fired, it probably would have made the AFV crawl back, even if the shot didn't do real damage.

And if they had made the kill, some people would argue that Mr. Hardenberger was a little hasty and careless with his advance. I don't recall who said it first, but the quote "the Victor is always right" still stands.

And I think you're doing fine on them Titty's.

Keep it up, boy, just you keep it up!

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

G2's still beating on Maps to get you the 1:50,000 topos, but progress is being made. Here, you'll find a simple contour map to the left and its corresponding aerial photo.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/smallunit/map-smi-04.JPG

G2 has no stereoscope, but is still of the opinion there's a large disconnect between the imagery and those odd golf course greens you keep reporting as the actual terrain. Are you sure you're on the right map? Yours bears little resemblance to the rough and cluttered lands the aerial photo shows. Tree cover appears much denser, and there does appear to be evidence of terracing as well, though image resolution makes that interpretation a bit of a stretch.

Regards,

John Kettler

[kensal]

The irregularities appear linear. Were the hillsides terraced?

Michael

Indeed so, although it seems vegetation and cover was very limited:

"The ridges in the hill triangle are extensively cultivated by use of terraces. At the time of the attack, vegetation was sparse and what there was stood less than ankle-high. Some of the hills, notably the forward slope of The Spur, are almost bare. Even where there are scattered trees, by 11 May most of them had been sheared off at half length by artillery fire. Sunken roads that are little more than farm trails wind their way across the ridges; the most important was the sunken road which branches off from the Santa Maria highway, then winds across the forward slope of The Spur and northeast to Pulcherini."

From: http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/smallunit/smallunit-smi.htm

[GreenAsJade]

Well, you can't catch Bil out

His HT's under mortar fire this time moved forwards instead of back:

On the upside of this - it took almost a minute for the mortar to adjust aim, so only one round was wasted.

At the same time, a full size tank started making an approach to Left Tit. This of course must be the guy that will silence my right flank fire.

I toyed with the idea of letting those forward right flank dudes bug out this turn, but in the end decided that they should make hay while the sun shines. So the mortar is continuing to harrass the Right Tit HTs and the MMG is continuing to shoot blind at Left Tit - this turn with the aim of making it hard for Bil to chase my Sniper who's trying to get away.

[GreenAsJade]

The force on Right Tit has finally come into view of the Left Flank MMG - at least, one HT has.

The MMG can't tell if there are passengers on board: perhaps not, but he's been ordered to open fire anyhow.

Nothing else exciting to report. The Brummbar on Hill 130 pulled back, the JgPz is still there, and harrassing fire continues to land in my rear quarters, behind Hill 172.

We're 20% through the allotted time, and the Tits are still not really secure for Bil. This is better than I might have hoped for. (Imagine if I'd put the men up on the Tits in the foxholes instead of off to the side: they'd be dead and Bil would be moving on by now!)

However, I think that with the forwards rush of HTs over Right Tit, I can now expect the next phase: probing the main road to the Spur - to commence.

GaJ

[Michael Emrys]

"The ridges in the hill triangle are extensively cultivated by use of terraces. At the time of the attack, vegetation was sparse and what there was stood less than ankle-high. Some of the hills, notably the forward slope of The Spur, are almost bare. Even where there are scattered trees, by 11 May most of them had been sheared off at half length by artillery fire. Sunken roads that are little more than farm trails wind their way across the ridges; the most important was the sunken road which branches off from the Santa Maria highway, then winds across the forward slope of The Spur and northeast to Pulcherini."

From: http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/smallunit/smallunit-smi.htm

Sounds like Bil needs to redraw the map. And this one is so pretty...

Michael

[Baneman]

...

We're 20% through the allotted time, and the Tits are still not really secure for Bil. This is better than I might have hoped for. ...

I'm glad to see that the attacker has fairly limited time in this battle.

One of the differences between CM1 and CM2 has been the time available in a battle. In CM1 a defender could get good results out of slowing the attacker down sufficiently to prevent him reaching the objectives, but in CM2, that's often not been the case ( granted, with a new engine and all, I'm sure it's been much more difficult to "guesstimate" how much time would be required, whereas in CM1, designers had it down pat ).

[c3k]

Yeah, time is the enemy when on the attack.

(Map comments: I think the map is great. I've got all the pictures from the CMH site, and Bil's map hews pretty tight to the pictures.)

[Vark]

Take care about counting minutes to victory. Sometimes the initial probing of the front defences, by its very nature, takes time, the subsequent dismantling less so.