ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[GreenAsJade]

I haven't seen the movie from Bil yet. The decider for taking the shot was the experience with the JgPz ... how hard it is to hide the gun. If he's going to spot the gun, there's not point in _not_ taking the shot...

The turn has arrived, but I have to go do family stuff, so more later...

GaJ

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

I'd rate the chances of penetrating the side of the casemate/fighting compartment to be nil. The armor's way too thick, is angled away from you in the vertical (the upper part; some help on the underside of the fighting compartment, since it folds toward you, but still ridiculous effective thickness) and you're firing at nothing close to perpendicular to the side. If you hit the upper hull side, I think you're still looking at effective thicknesses well past your gun's performance. ISTR, the armor is 80mm at 0.

I think, though, you have a real chance of hurting his running gear, maybe breaking a track and..? That last is because I have absolutely zero data in my memory of what the lower hull side thickness and composition (armor or mild steel?) is behind and, to some small degree, above the road wheels. If you can hit there, you may be able to penetrate the beast and do serious-fatal damage.

Obviously, this is your fight, but I'd take that opportunity to shoot. It might be pivotal, and you already know it's all too easy to spot and kill your ATGs. If they're going to probably die, then it seems reasonable to use them preemptively in the hope of doing something useful with them other than slightly depleting Bil's ammo stocks! The presumptive quarry poses no direct threat to your gun, certainly not in time to do anything likely to affect the engagement. Overwatch elements are another matter, but your antitank guns have useful lives ending shortly after Bil spots them, and as methodical as he is, and as broken as gun camouflage is, he will. Sooner or later.

slysniper,

If he were firing HE, then I think your concern would be valid. Fuze Super Quick would indeed be likely to detonate if it hit branches or a tree trunk, but such obstacles shouldn't be enough to fuze AP shell. AP shell deflection is a possibility, but I think shell detonation is highly unlikely.

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

Yes - John - that's why I said "the Elefant is at the worst angle".

These 76's can definitely penetrate the side at 90 degrees, surprisingly easily, I found in tests, FWIW.

I better go look at the movie

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

Well, that was all very exciting.

But ... the Elefant ran away!!!

It was not in response to me opening fire - it started moving right at the beginning of the turn, so it looks like my ATG was spotted already!

One could ask "Was that an Elefant or a Mouse!?"

The net result of this was that I didn't get to take the shot at the Elefant, but the ATG was opened up, so it decided to fire on Bil's scouting HT. I imagine that this guy will be reporting back that there's an ATG on the hill

I'm not completely sure, but I think those might be my first confirmed kills for this game.

There were plenty of other explosions going on this turn...

[GreenAsJade]

As I feared, Bil appears to have spotted my M10s, from his right flank (my side) KW guy.

In came the artillery this turn - it looks like 2 tubes of 88 or 105.

Fearing that this was coming, I plotted some running away manoeuvres for the M10s.

It looked like this:

The right hand guy moved forwards, away from the supposed target impact zone, and paused to take some shots at where the KW guy might be, before reversing back to my right.

The left hand guy moved the other way, zig-zagging back also eventually to my right (avoiding facing his rear to any surprise manouvers or exposure from my left).

Well, the right hand guy proved he can't hit the side of a vast open field, his area fire falling dismally short of the target zone...

... and the first two shells came down - one right next to him! (the other far off to the left)

Then, the next two shells arrived landing on the building right next to the left hand guy...

As is often the case, the manoeuvers actually moved the tanks nearer to the impacts than if I'd stayed still!!

In action, it looked like a movie script, explosions to the left, explosions to the right ... and of course the good guys narrowly escaping

I'm thankful they are still alive ... they'll keep dodging next turn!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Well, the right hand guy proved he can't hit the side of a vast open field, his area fire falling dismally short of the target zone...

If he is firing while paused with a move order after the pause his accuracy will be the same as if he were firing while in motion, unless this has been fixed.

[GreenAsJade]

Interestingly, no similar fate befell the ATG on that side, so maybe it has actually remained unspotted.

Bil paused his assault on my bunker this turn - the JgPz did a little postion adjustment instead, so the guys in there got back to their game of poker.

He also stopped firing on the sniper that's on Right Tit. That was interesting: it seems both the Brummbar and the HT had been guessing where to fire. In the case of the HT, it guessed really well - I thought I was under direct attack. So those guys lived for another minute, and as a result have spotted left-hand-KW guy again...

He has sensibly followed my advice, and moved off the path into the grass, but it hasn't helped him. I'll take another pot shot at him this turn.

That guy is in trouble whichever way you look at it anyhow: artillery has started falling onto the Spur that the KW dude has the job of scouting...

[GreenAsJade]

Just in the nick of time (before the artillery gets to them) the MMG on Sunken Road (in the upper middle of the picture in the previous post) finally got a chance to do it's job, making life hard for operations on Right Tit:

I got a couple of satisfying red crosses on that HT, which pulled back fast.

Then, at the close of the turn, some scouting infantry appeared through the dust of the nearby artillery shell ...

... I hope I get a shot at them before they duck into the grass!

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

The expression "perfect "bad" angle" confused me. I couldn't tell whether or not you were being facetious.

Congratulations! Your ATG managed to do something relatively few did--hit an AFV. Granted, not that behemoth Sahara Gelb job, but a real AFV anyway. Am surprised the apparent 251 isn't a flaming pyre, but maybe the AP shell was going so fast, and the armor was so thin, that whoever was in the direct penetration path (troop compartment?) got hit with the projectile and armor gobbets, and that was it. Such things can and do happen in war. One of my favorites is the M5 Stuart which comes around a corner and gets drilled by an 88 from, say, a hundred yards. The projectile goes through one side of the turret, crosses the inside, then exits, having never detonated. No one was so much as scratched, but I don't recommend this novel ventilation approach for your tank! You can read about it at Tanks For The Memories.

Regards,

John Kettler

[GreenAsJade]

Meanwhile, there's let more action over on the right flank. Large explosions continue to fall in an apparently-undirectid fashion on Hill 109.

It's not artillery, but I can't see what's firing it. It's making big craters, so it seems like it's the Elefant or a Brummbar or similar. So far, no damage sustained. I have to think that right-KW-guy has not got his eyes over the ridge yet, and Bil thinks that I have more defences on this spot. Yay, long may that last.

Interestingly, what I thought was going to be an HT rush on Hill 109 seems to have veered to the north and is coming madly up the west side of the main ridge.

This looks like more "recon by death", hunting for the ATGs that are covering this side of the field. What's actually waiting for this approach is "snakes in the grass" on that side of the ridge. If the HT makes it past those as far as the field of fire of the Hill 128 ATG, I'll probably use that to take it out.

[GreenAsJade]

One of my favorites is the M5 Stuart which comes around a corner and gets drilled by an 88 from, say, a hundred yards. The projectile goes through one side of the turret, crosses the inside, then exits, having never detonated. No one was so much as scratched, but I don't recommend this novel ventilation approach for your tank! You can read about it at Tanks For The Memories.

And it's accurately modelled in CMAK. I had numerous ventilated Stuarts while playing that...

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

An update on the overall view, with all this action ...

Looking at all at this, and asking myself "what is Bil's plan?", I think it looks like "he doesn't have one right now".

He's still doing recon, and he has forces on both sides of the main ridge. I'm pretty well expecting that when the "victory push" comes, it will be on one side or the other, to deny me the use of my whole force (which is spread across both sides).

So I have to hang tight and just keep hassling him each time he moves...

GaJ

[Baneman]

Cyclops hadn't learned to control his powers yet...

[Hister]

GaJ, can your remaining left flank ATG see where sunken road area is? If not then you can only use left flank TD in case armor heads that way and overcomes your defences, right? How exposed can your central TD's be when they are needed either on the left or the right flank aka how safely can they reposition? Hope you would be able to utilize them when the need arises since those are your spine force.

Good performance so far GaJ - thanx for great entertainment!

[GreenAsJade]

Well, the left flank ATG's lifespan is probably limited now that it's opened fire.

It's "keyhole" is really the centre road.

Defense of an armoured hook coming up my left flank is mostly down to the 3 TDs and numerous bazookas in the Left Approach Valley.

I had thought, when I was setting up, that I had good manoueverability to ge tthe 2 centre TDs over for this purpose, but events have uncovered two problems with that

1) The overwatch from Hill 130 can see, spottily, into the manouevering zone.

2) There's clearly a TRP in the crossroads of SMI, which is key to that sort of manouver as well (there were no spotting rounds for the artillery strike on my M10s).

This will make it more tricky, but they can either dodge the artillery and overwatch (note that it's been quite hard for the JgPz to land rounds on the bunker, which is instructive), or go the long way around the back of SMI.

GaJ

[womble]

If it's any encouragement, I've personally never had any luck hitting M10s with indirect fire. Just because they're open topped doesn't automatically mean artillery will kill 'em off.

[Vark]

I thought it was tree bursts and VT fused shells that killed the crews. Can you select airburst? The 88's were know for firing them and tanks would skip shells to get a de-facto effect.

[womble]

I thought it was tree bursts and VT fused shells that killed the crews. Can you select airburst? The 88's were know for firing them and tanks would skip shells to get a de-facto effect.

You can only select "airburst" timed fuses in-game from TRP or pre-planned shoots. Any "VT" fuses that killed M10 crews were friendly fire, since I don't believe the Germans ever deployed radio proximity fuses in any number, and even the Allies didn't bring them into large scale service (for GtG artillery - I gather they were used earlier for naval GtA) until the very end of, IIRC, '44.

"VT", while standing for "Variable Time" in the American usage, was a misdirection name for the radio proximity fuse. A quick Google suggests that a "real" timed fuse, such as that used for Ground to Air gunnery is simply referred to as a "timed fuse", with "VT" reserved (a brand, if you will) for the american proximity fuse that wasn't timed at all.

[GreenAsJade]

GaJ, can your remaining left flank ATG see where sunken road area is? If not then you can only use left flank TD in case armor heads that way and overcomes your defences, right? How exposed can your central TD's be when they are needed either on the left or the right flank aka how safely can they reposition? Hope you would be able to utilize them when the need arises since those are your spine force.

It's surprisingly hard to show you guys stuff that's easy to see when you can move the map around. A couple of times I've almost resorted to movies ... maybe that will be the next thing.

Anyhow, here is another picture of last turn's action, showing how the ATG can see the main road, showing the HT that it shot this turn, plus the other related activities of this turn, all from the view of looking along The Spur ridgeline.

Hopefully this shows you that Sunken Road is down on Bil's side of The Spur, and that the ATG deliberately can't see there because if it could, it would have been exposed to Hill 130.

HTH

GaJ

[Vark]

I was using VT as timed fuse, around since pre-WWI, will be more careful of using terminology. The 88's timed fuse was particularly feared as its HV shell exploded before the muzzle report warned any of its firing. I was reading of an account of an Australian section being caught out, in Tobruk, the shell catching soldiers out of their defences, not a pretty outcome.

[Hister]

Thank you very much GaJ for this detailed explanation!

[costard]

Great screen shot GAJ.

As a request, could you please identify new turns with their turn number? I'm having to switch to Bil's thread to maintain some sense of coherency. Cheers.

[GreenAsJade]

OK - what's the best way to refer to a "turn number" that will help consistency?

This turn that I'm about to report is the turn 0:53-0:52, the 18th movie.

BTW, there's so much detail to love about that screenshot. Check the lens of the gun-sight. And the flowers on the bush Awesome detail, that I never see except taking screenies for AARs

Anyway, here we go, Turn 0:53-0:52. the 18th movie .

I thought I'd start where I left off, looking at the Sunken Road MMG. Here is another picture telling this turn's tale, and also hoping to show you more geography.

Here we are sitting on top of The Spur, looking from my position to Bil's, more or less (basically south) at Right Tit.

The soldier I was hoping to shoot at disappeared (contact marker on Right Tit), but another HT came for me to shoot at - darn thing went and menaced my Sniper, as shown (oops, that should be a dotted line showing the HT firing on the Sniper, not solid, which I am using for movement). That sniper deserves to die anyhow... he's totally useless. He took 3 or 4 shots at the KW man missing every time, before being sent to ground by the HT fire. Maybe someone's earlier comment about injured snipers not being able to shoot is true!

The MMG opened fire, got some penetrations, but this time no red crosses. The HT ran away again though.

I turned trees off for clarity. You can see the dip of Sunken Road with the fallback foxhole there. Although there hasn't been any return fire on my MMG yet, it's probably time for him to run away about now! I don't think you get to fire twice on Bil's HTs without retribution, especially sitting as they are on the forwards slope of the Spur. There is no LOS from them to Hill 130, due only to trees blocking, but I'm pretty sure Bil could land 88s nearby from the Brummbar...

[John Kettler]

GreenAsJade,

I thought the terrain was a bit exposed. Am surprised you could get a vision slot (visor open) penetration on the HT and not frang somebody inside. Am impressed with your ATG's cool sight and forget firing procedure. I try to get my guys to stay on the gunsight scope, but it generally doesn't help. I console myself with JasonC statistics on the general uselessness of most weapons on a per unit basis.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Hister]

Is the sniper dead or still kicking? If he manages to get out of this alive then send him to that KW scout from behind and shoot at him from point blank distance. That should negate sniper's injury, he he. Is it time perhaps to make testing with injured sniopers? Perhaps their injured inaccuracy is overdone?