December Normandy Bones

[Lethaface]

In hindsight I think I would rather have been a regular customer.

Apart from the honor of being a Beta here , and my deepest appreciation for those that take up the challenge: For me being a beta tester would ruin the relaxation and excitement a (new) game can offer, however this could be related to my RL job

[Battlefront.com]

The official TO&E did change to 2x BAR, correct. But unofficially they had 3 in some cases, though certainly it wasn't uniform. The US has a long history of official TO&E basically condoning unofficial changes that were already widespread. For example, the dismounted .50cal was for AA use only. But when grunts see something that makes big holes in enemy stuff, they tend to find a way of "procuring" it

Pretty much all German Squads in PzGren units, armored and truck, had two LMGs. Same with the Recon dismounts. Having a dedicated ride made it more practical to have that sort of arrangement as lugging around enough ammo for 2x LMG without an increase in manpower is asking for a lot.

Steve

[Elmar Bijlsma]

SFAIK, the only US Marines in Europe were part of ships' crews and were not involved in ground fighting. In the Pacific, USMC infantry were indeed the first to use two BARs per squad. They might have gone to three, but I don't know anything about that.

Michael

I vaguely recall reading an anecdote here about Marines ditching their camouflage to avoid confusion with the German Waffen SS pattern.

Can't recall ever reading about Marines in action in Normandy though. But I can well imagine that the USMC had people there just so the USMC could say they were there. It was the biggest amphibious assault the world had ever seen, after all.

[PaulMG]

USMC Raiders used it after US advisors learned it from the Chinese. The Marines adopted it later in the war. IFAIK the Army didn't until after WWII.

[jeffsmith]

U.S. Marines in Europe during WWII

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/HD/Frequently_Requested/Marines%20in%20WWII%20Sheets/Marines%20in%20Europe.htm

[bmackay]

I vaguely recall reading an anecdote here about Marines ditching their camouflage to avoid confusion with the German Waffen SS pattern.

Can't recall ever reading about Marines in action in Normandy though. But I can well imagine that the USMC had people there just so the USMC could say they were there. It was the biggest amphibious assault the world had ever seen, after all.

US Marines never fought German Waffen SS units. What your thinking of is shortly after the Dday landings a very few US army units were issued an experimental dot pattern uniform, similar to the SS camouflage uniform. Needless it say, given the amount of SS divisions in Normandy they were quickly ditched for fear of being accidentally shot. Very few photographs exist, and i have never seen an example today, and i collect this stuff.

[bmackay]

Here shown in summer 1944 France.

http://www.atthefront.com/us/uniforms/images/armycamouflage/us_camo_1944.jpg

[MikeyD]

Yikes! That is some ugly-arse camouflage! I'd prefer to see "saving Private Ryan" airborne outfits, myself.

[panzermartin]

I think they didnt use it because the contrast with the ss camo uniforms was too embarassing

[toxic.zen]

my apologies if this hasn already been covered, i read much of the thread without finding it. Will Japanese units be a part of the game? in future modules perhaps? :confused:

[MikeyD]

Nope, Pacific conflict's not on the table so far as we know. And if it was it wouldn't be a module, it's be a full series of its own. Heck, they'd even have to change the position of the stars in the sky for that one!

[Erwin]

Ok, time for a poll. Who amongst us actually studies the night sky in CMSF to check on star locations lol?

[gibsonm]

Well it took 4 Betas of CM:N to correctly adjust the sky to reflect 1944 star positions as compared to 2008 ish.

[JonS]

Does the moon count as a 'star' in this context?

[Pvt. Ryan]

The Moon is a moon. And also a member of the Battlefront team.

[LJFHutch]

The Moon is a moon. And also a member of the Battlefront team.

Looks fantastic, I can't wait for the release

[Sakai007]

wow, @ bmackay - I would have guessed Marines too on first glance, and I am a, shall I say, "avid" amateur student of WWII History. And this is knowing that there were no marines in France, the similarity is there. I like the uniforms personally, but I can see the reason those troops wanted to ditch them in a hurry with a lot of SS units operating in the area. Like when someone asks me why our soldiers weren't picking up AKs of the ground in Vietnam to use them when the M16 was so faulty (no cleaning kits or chromium [spelling] lined bolts era). Of course, the reason being is that in jungle warfare when the enemy is only 20 meters away and the quickest way to ID friend or foe is from the report of their weapon when it fires. I spoke to a man once who was an adviser in 64 and he told me much the same thing, only between the M1 Carbine and the SKS (he had NOTHING good to say about the M1A1 carbine, but I don't know myself, always heard they were great weapons) The lesson learned is that it's a very bad thing to be mistaken for the enemy in a fire fight.

OT - Ironic I thought after thinking about it, there were no Marines at Normandy, this is fact, but later on during Operation Dragoon, the first aircraft to land in southern France was an Air Corps P-51B being flown by a Navy arty spotter pilot, strange circumstance war brings!

[Michael Emrys]

U.S. Marines in Europe during WWII

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/HD/Frequently_Requested/Marines%20in%20WWII%20Sheets/Marines%20in%20Europe.htm

Thanks for that, Jeff. I knew but had forgotten about the Marine brigade at Iceland, but as the article states, they were withdrawn after the US entered the war. Most of the other information was new to me and interesting, but does not change my appreciation that significant formed bodies of USMC troops did not engage in ground combat in Europe.

BTW, I once had an old guy spin me a story about how he was part of a Marine battalion that fought at el Alamein and then later at Monte Casino, but try as I might I have never turned up the slightest ghost of a confirmation of that.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Here shown in summer 1944 France.

http://www.atthefront.com/us/uniforms/images/armycamouflage/us_camo_1944.jpg

By comparison, here is the USMC pattern camo:

http://www.olive-drab.com/images/uniform_usmc_camo_betio.jpg

Michael

[JonS]

BTW, I once had an old guy spin me a story about how he was part of a Marine battalion that fought at el Alamein and then later at Monte Casino, but try as I might I have never turned up the slightest ghost of a confirmation of that.

US or Royal?

[snake_eye]

Here shown in summer 1944 France.

http://www.atthefront.com/us/uniforms/images/armycamouflage/us_camo_1944.jpg

Very well know picture, among others, taken in CANISY in the first days of the COBRA break through, showing soldiers belonging to the 2nd Armored Division.

The Division units having been identified wearing these camouflage uniforms are the 41st Armored Infantry Regt and the 17th Armored engineer battalion. Some unconfirmed reports, are saying that the 30th Infantry Division might have also received some of these uniforms.

The cammo uniforms were distributed to the 2nd A.D at the end of June after it had landed.

The reason pertaining to the distribution of the cammo, still is not know to these days and hypothetic explanation have been written

I think they didnt use it because the contrast with the ss camo uniforms was too embarassing

These camouflage 2 pieces uniforms were not used after for reasons ranging from :

It looks like the SS camouflage (actually it is very different looking) to the fact that it shown the wearer more when he was on the move that at standstill.

The real reason is still to be discovered through documents or known facts from veterans. If you know something, let me know.

By comparison, here is the USMC pattern camo:

http://www.olive-drab.com/images/uniform_usmc_camo_betio.jpg

Michael

Having had in the past years, SS camouflage uniforms (from Normandy battlefield ), US Army cammo 2 pieces uniforms ,USMC cammo 1 piece, and 2 pieces, I can tell you that US Army and USMC pattern looks almost similar, the color being slightly different depending on the batch of delivery. The SS ’44 peas pattern and summer time color (the one used in Normandy) has no similarity to the US Army pattern. Naturally, someone not knowing in ’44 what that uniform was, might think that the guys were Germans.

As a matter of fact, the Poles in the Chambois area of the Falaise pocket thought, that the first US troops they had seen , coming toward them, were Germans. The fields being covered by haze the US helmet seemed to them a German one !

During the COBRA breakthrough, some civilians coming back to their farms seeing the US cammo uniforms, thought that the Germans had come back. Being in areas having been just evacuated by some SS units, you can understand easily such a mistake. Lets not forget that the information was not at the time what it has become today with TV. They did not have at the time real time news.

[panzermartin]

These camouflage 2 pieces uniforms were not used after for reasons ranging from :

It looks like the SS camouflage (actually it is very different looking) to the fact that it shown the wearer more when he was on the move that at standstill.

The real reason is still to be discovered through documents or known facts from veterans. If you know something, let me know.

I dont know much. All I know is they look crap compared to the uberness of german camo patterns I was just joking saying that GI's would be embarrased to use them.

[snake_eye]

I dont know much. All I know is they look crap compared to the uberness of german camo patterns I was just joking saying that GI's would be embarrased to use them.

You are going to like these. Ah Ah !

Yeah, the German SS cammo pattern was better than its US counterpart. The Austrian Army and much latter the Bundeswehr used some kind of peas and or Leibermunster pattern (see below).

Yet, it will be of some interest to some of you to know, that the German had in mind to issue only one cammo pattern in 1945 to all arms, WH, WL and SS.

That new cammo pattern is the ’45 cammo “ Buntfarbenaufdruck 45 or Leibermunster” as it is known, looks mostly, for the colors (the pattern is not really similar) like the NATO cammo from the ’80 or the ERDL woodland of the US Army, albeit without the streaks of white. Amazingly, the cammo had blotches of dark shade among the various ones of brown ,green(2 shades: dark and clear) , white, red (rust red) found on it. The dark blotches were derived from charcoal pigments. They were used to render invisible the cammo in the infra red spectrum. The German had deposited a patent for that, despites the fact that they were engaged in a full war.

That is why, you found these dark blotches on Nato cammo of the ’80.

These German cammo, said the historian Rolf Michaelis were issued to units of the 101. Jager Division , as it has been confirmed recently by pictures , and to the 20th SS “Estland” (estnische Nr.1) Grenadier Division

[Roach]

A pretty picture of WW2 US Army Camo:

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc478/Alfred_Jones_Jnr/WW2%20Camo/USArmyWW2Camo01.jpg

From the book, The World War 2 GI in Color Photographs

[JoMac]

Steve, You may use the following below as a rough but fairly good guideline, to 44' Normandy and Beyond. This is ofcourse similar to CMBO and the CMAK Mod.

U.S.

In 44' Normandy Jun/Aug The Squad would include 1xBAR, 1xSMG, 8 or 9x M1, 1x Bolt

This may change to 2x Bar per Squad ( in place of the M1 ) in the 44' Sept Module, but for sure in the 44'-45' Dec/Jan+ Module.

In these later Modules I would also replace one of the M1s with an SMG ( Grease gun ). The Squad will now include: 2xBar, 2x SMG ( one Thompson, one Grease ), 7x Rifle, 1x Bolt.

General allotment of 1x Zoosk per Platoon is giving by the CHQ ( CHQ has around 4, one for each Inf Platoon including the Weapons Platoon ).

However, I am not sure if the Armored Inf Squads increased their Bar allotment to 2x per Squad, or changed one of their M1s to SMG ( Grease Gun ) after 44' Sept.

All Infantry Squads would have a dedicated Grenadier with say upto 3x AT Rifles.

I do recall that there were 2x Zoosk in the M3 HT Platoon ( I believe one is in the PHQ M3 HT, and the other in the Weapons M3 HT ).

German,

In 44' Normandy give the Infantry Divisions 1xLMG, 2xSMG, and say 6 rifle per Squad, give the Motorized Inf Div 2xLMG, 2xSMG, and say 5 or 6 rifle per Squad.

For all Squads, around 2x Faust.

In later Modules you can have one of the rifles in the Motorised Inf Squad replaced with an MP44. This would roughly give the Squad: 2xLMG 1xSMG 1x MP44, 5x Rifle.

Infantry Squads would still look similar to 44' Normandy.

If using less common weapons, then you could add things like 1x G-43 Semi-Rifle in the Infantry Platoon.

All Infantry Squads would have around 3x Faust.

I would also give 1x Shreck per Inf Platoon, or 2x Shreck per Inf Company 44' Normandy and beyond.

Ofcourse all the above is assuming no Casualties or reduced battlefield TO&E.

I would reduce 1x LMG ( only if the squad has more then one LMG ), and or 1x SMG ( only if squad has more then one LMG ) if Infantry Squads start the game at 70-80%.