December Normandy Bones

[GDog]

Germans shoot Americans, Americans shoot Germans, Computer works out who wins, you get graphic display of results.

It all happens near some beach in France.

You want fries with that?

If they are Freedom Fries, yes.

[Dietrich]

I just can't wait to start blowing up the Germies and their toys.

*breaks out his copy of Schneider's Panzer Tactics*

"Vee vill see just hoo getz blown to a thousand kingdom comings!!"

[gibsonm]

*breaks out his copy of Schneider's Panzer Tactics*

"Vee vill see just hoo getz blown to a thousand kingdom comings!!"

Not if you can't talk to your driver and gunner for the want of a headset.

[Mord]

*breaks out his copy of Schneider's Panzer Tactics*

"Vee vill see just hoo getz blown to a thousand kingdom comings!!"

*breaks out his copy of Mord's Guide To Brewing Up Kraut Warmachines; A Guide To PBEM Whupass...Volume IV.*

I look forward to roasting marshmallows over your flaming, crispified Panther carcass...

Not if you can't talk to your driver and gunner for the want of a headset.

He won't need to...it'll only take a second to turn his TC into a beautiful, abstract Allied sculpture..."OH CRAAAAAAAP!" will translate just as well over the non electronic airwaves as it will his useless radio which will be dead and burnt anyhow...AMEN!

Man, I can't wait!

Mord.

[Chad Harrison]

Oh, and German infantry are divided up into two Teams, US three Teams. Both can be split up into two groupings. One group gets the "rifles" and the other gets the "LMG". In the event that there are two LMGs present, then one of the LMGs goes with the "rifles".

This is about as close to actual doctrine that we could get. And it is, actually, quite close.

Steve

Just curious, but with a typical 12 man US Rifle Squad, how will this work?

1. Team one: squad leader, 4 rifleman

2. Team two: BAR man, BAR assistant and 3 rifleman

3. Team three: two scouts

I know that there were 2 designated 'scouts' in each squad, but I am not sure how the spit the remaining 10 men.

[Battlefront.com]

The Scouts are Riflemen just like any other when it comes to a fight. They are only Scouts when they are specifically out scouting This is something the player can do manually by using an Admin Command to split off a 2 man Scout Team. This separate Team can then do it's job by moving ahead of the Squad and/or Platoon.

The default splitting is Team A with 4 men, Team B with 5 men, and Team C with a 3 man LMG (BAR) Team. This is the best organization for the way the game handles Squads. It also gives the US a noticeable tactical edge over the much smaller German Squads, which is realistic given the relative sizes of each.

Steve

[Dietrich]

*breaks out his copy of Mord's Guide To Brewing Up Kraut Warmachines; A Guide To PBEM Whupass...Volume IV.*

I look forward to roasting marshmallows over your flaming, crispified Panther carcass...

"Verdammt—I got

by mistake!"

*cues up Wilhelm scream*

[aka_Hawk]

I think it would be cool if they scanned the horizon with binoculars when unbuttoned...

To be honest, I don't really care what they do as long as I long as they are unbuttoned. We are talking about female French resistance fighters, right? :cool:

[scottie]

Missed this thread on the 12th was a nice surprise today when i logged in. Screen shots look amazing thanks, great to see some lush vegetation, makes the whole feel seem much more homely to me. Spent a fair amount of time in the Normandy , could be our back yard So no release in December , has to be said this was expected based on all previous comments. Hopefully we will see something late January if everything goes to plan or early Feb if any further issues crop up.

[Lanzfeld]

I wonder if there will be a demo BEFORE the release of the game like CMBO?

[Cid250]

That's the stuff that we want... your text detail is more interesting than just pictures:

Oh, and German infantry are divided up into two Teams, US three Teams. Both can be split up into two groupings. One group gets the "rifles" and the other gets the "LMG". In the event that there are two LMGs present, then one of the LMGs goes with the "rifles".

This is about as close to actual doctrine that we could get. And it is, actually, quite close.

Steve

Well, this seems close enought to the tactical doctrine approach... if the TacAI acts different for each Army:

German Troops: The LMG it's the main fighting weapon (not the supporting weapon), and the rifemen usually support and provide security for the LMG instead. The LMG team usually was composed by 4: the squad leader that helps with direction of fire, the gunner, the asitant/loader (with some ammo and spare barels), and an extra guy acting as ammo carrier with more ammo. The Rifle squad avoids to fight at long ranges, since the single shot rifles are effective only at medium ranges or in emergency situations when they need to provide some security in the flanks of the LMG team. Keeping the LMG as the only fighting weapon at long ranges, provide a very small profile/target for enemy weapons... was very frequent to shoot only a few brust, until the enemy returns fire, and then was very frequent to get cover, reteat the LMG to another spot and open fire from a diferent place if it's possible.

US Troops: The BAR is the supporting weapon, due to the high rate of fire of the semi-autos, the full squad is used in the firefight. This turns very difficult to supress all the squad by small arms fire at a time, since they can be deployed in a wide area and shotting a lot from diferent places. The drawback is that all the members of the squad are invloved in the fight and this gives more posible targets for heavy weapons fire like HMGs. The BAR was used to allow maniover, providing an extra amount of fire when a section of the squad moves and those semi-auto rifles are out to add volume of fire.

How close of this approach the TacAI will be?.

The Scouts are Riflemen just like any other when it comes to a fight. They are only Scouts when they are specifically out scouting This is something the player can do manually by using an Admin Command to split off a 2 man Scout Team. This separate Team can then do it's job by moving ahead of the Squad and/or Platoon.

The default splitting is Team A with 4 men, Team B with 5 men, and Team C with a 3 man LMG (BAR) Team. This is the best organization for the way the game handles Squads. It also gives the US a noticeable tactical edge over the much smaller German Squads, which is realistic given the relative sizes of each.

Steve

Those are also fantastic news... since recon patrols of a squad were usually composed by 2 guys, in both: the Germans, and the US.

May be the only tiny detail here, was that the germans where resting more in their squad leader as a recon member. They were usualy at bigger risk than the US counterpart.

This recon activity by the german squad leader was drawn back due to the casualities, but the advantages were the first hand tactical info that helps with the selection of the best terrain to place the LMG in the next jump. That's due to the tactical doctrine of using the LMG as the main fighting element (sometimes, at long ranges, the only fighting element of the whole squad). The German Squad leader is the director of Fire, so was more frequen for him to go ahead to recon the terrain, evaluate the risks, and choose the best placement for the LMG.

I understand that this level of fine-tunning in the Tac-AI, it's impossible...

But i will be glad if i see this option of detaching two soldiers of the squad for recon duty, in both: the US and the Germans... in your post seems that this kind of recon was only implemented for the US, i'm wrong?.

If the squad is equiped with at least one SMG, and a pair of Binocs... will be even better if the scout split involves a pair of Riflemen+SMG, and the binocs. The Tac-AI for a scout patrol, will avoid fire at all cost... they only open fire when it's absolutely urgent to escape towards the closest cover and wait for supporting fire of their squad mates... was a normal procedure to move the scouts no more than 100m ahead (as average, it depends of terrain features and visibility), and the guys in the rear doesn't move simultaneously... they take good firing positions and pay attention for the possible event of an urgent need of fire support in help of the scout patrol. The SMG is a good reactive-fire weapon at short ranges, and that's the reason for being part of many scout patrols, (the SMG only doesn't help when the terrain is very open, but even a rifle or semi-auto, will not help much in that terrain either due to their lack of speed in providing enought fast fire reply)

Will be a nice Tac-AI feature for the scout patrols, to stop moving forward, if their squad mates in the rear lose line of sight (and fire) over their possition due to a terrain feature. If it's implemented in this way, it will be much better than the 100m rule, because it can be applied with sucess also in urban terrain.

[Battlefront.com]

The basic doctrine used today is based on what was learned in WW2. You'll see the same tactical behavior in CM:SF as you will in Normandy. In real life things were infinitely more flexible than could ever be adequately handled in a game, no matter how detailed. The AI necessary to mimic the full range of possibilities is just as impractical to code as the overhead of a game of this scale operating with no strict rules for internal unit behavior.

In real life there were few situations where the LMG team would be separated from the main part of the squad by any significant difference. Leap frogging was far more effective if done by Squad rather than by Section within the Squad.

Plus, the Germans have some Squad types which had 2x LMGs, which is an acknowledgment that leap frogging rifles in one go and the LMG in the other wasn't very practical. So much so that pretty much all modern armies employ the concept of a Squad with two Teams each with its own LMG. The Americans learned this the hard way in Normandy and eventually wound up with as many as 3x BAR/M1919A6 per Squad.

Steve

[MikeyD]

I wonder if there will be a demo BEFORE the release of the game like CMBO?

I think the demo for CMBO was meant to make you a part of the Beta process. There was a lot of original stuff that needed to get thoroughly tested-out back then. Now BFC has the opposite problem. If every 't' is not crossed and every 'i' not dotted at release the more hysterical out there will be waving their hands in the air crying "Fatally flawed! Fatally flawed!" So I doubt there's much of an urge to supply a demo before all the details are dealt with.

[Chad Harrison]

The default splitting is Team A with 4 men, Team B with 5 men, and Team C with a 3 man LMG (BAR) Team. This is the best organization for the way the game handles Squads. It also gives the US a noticeable tactical edge over the much smaller German Squads, which is realistic given the relative sizes of each.

Steve

Thanks for the reply Steve. Its going to be nice as the Americans to be able to occupy such a large area with a single squad. They are going to need that against all those MG42's

Any input on the previous ammo question would be great if you get a chance. Incase you missed it, the question was whether or not non-vehicle formations would have a source of extra ammo to repelnish from? Such as an OP/CP, or trench, or foxholes or wherever else. This is based on the assumption that other vehicles will continue to have extra ammunition as was the case in CMSF.

Thanks in advance.

Chad

[Mord]

I think the demo for CMBO was meant to make you a part of the Beta process. There was a lot of original stuff that needed to get thoroughly tested-out back then. Now BFC has the opposite problem. If every 't' is not crossed and every 'i' not dotted at release the more hysterical out there will be waving their hands in the air crying "Fatally flawed! Fatally flawed!" So I doubt there's much of an urge to supply a demo before all the details are dealt with.

Why not pick a handful of of people, that aren't Beta Testers already and let them run through the game a couple weeks before it's ready to publish, just to double check everything? Fresh eyes and all that. People that haven't been mired in playing these last two years or so, will catch a lot of stuff. We know that from how quick stuff is pointed out when patches are released.

Just an idea...then there might not be as much bitching.

Mord.

[c3k]

Oooh, oooh, I have an idea for someone to test ammo sharing...

[Elmar Bijlsma]

...then there might not be as much bitching.

Less bitching? This community?! Hah! Bitching about lesser things, at best. :cool:

[panzermartin]

That's an awesome idea Mord. Let's start with people registered before June 2002 that exceed the 1000 post limit ( I also patiently await some reward for those mods of mine included in special CMBB edition )

[Fenris]

Looking forward to it.

Is there already or is there going to be a list of equipment published soon of what's going to make it into release? I guess I'm asking is it's own features page in the works?

Thanks

-Fenris

[dan/california]

That's an awesome idea Mord. Let's start with people registered before June 2002 that exceed the 1000 post limit ( I also patiently await some reward for those mods of mine included in special CMBB edition )

This is somewhat frightening but I think I also meet most of those qualifications. Coincidentally, I emphatically endorse Ali-Baba's suggestion.

[Mord]

Less bitching? This community?! Hah! Bitching about lesser things, at best. :cool:

I was hoping for a Christmas Miracle...

That's an awesome idea Mord. Let's start with people registered before June 2002 that exceed the 1000 post limit ( I also patiently await some reward for those mods of mine included in special CMBB edition )

LOL...yeah I figured a lot of regulars would go for it...

BTW...this is not meant to insult our great team of Beta Guys...but to help...especially when they are dealing with more than one title/module.

Mord.

[Michael Emrys]

The Americans learned this the hard way in Normandy and eventually wound up with as many as 3x BAR/M1919A6 per Squad.

Was this an "unofficial" TO&E change, Steve? I've read that after the Bulge the official TO&E raised it to two BARs/squad, but hadn't read anything about three.

Michael

[Elmar Bijlsma]

This is somewhat frightening but I think I also meet most of those qualifications. Coincidentally, I emphatically endorse Ali-Baba's suggestion.

See there the flaw, the entry qualifications are too generous. It needs to be narrowed to something more exclusive.

Like People that are neither Senior nor Junior Member.

*glances at his own status*

Oh my, what luck.

Actually, they couldn't pay me to beta something again.

With the shaky start of CMSF in particular it wasn't as rewarding an experience as I thought it would be. What some people thought they could say to/about me just because I was a beta-tester...

Besides that, there was the small matter of me being a somewhat poo tester.

In hindsight I think I would rather have been a regular customer.

[Cid250]

Was this an "unofficial" TO&E change, Steve? I've read that after the Bulge the official TO&E raised it to two BARs/squad, but hadn't read anything about three.

Michael

That was an experiment with the Marines... The marines were the ones that fielded 3 BARs per squad... if i doesn't remember it wrong... in Europe.

The two LMGs per squad, was a Panzergrenadier feature... the german armoured infantry had 2 LMGs per squad, mainly because they fight dismounted of their Sdkfz 251 and the LMG mounted in the rear of the vehicle was carried by the squad as second LMG. Those german squads were composed of 12 soldiers... figure that to feed a german LMG was usual a minimum of a gunner and other two guys (gunner assistant, and ammo carrier), so you really need 12 guys in a squad with 2xLMGs of such rate of fire.

I asked for the "two soldiers scout patrol" option... will be that option available for both US and Germans?.

[Michael Emrys]

That was an experiment with the Marines... The marines were the ones that fielded 3 BARs per squad... if i doesn't remember it wrong... in Europe.

SFAIK, the only US Marines in Europe were part of ships' crews and were not involved in ground fighting. In the Pacific, USMC infantry were indeed the first to use two BARs per squad. They might have gone to three, but I don't know anything about that.

Michael