December Normandy Bones

[Cid250]

SFAIK, the only US Marines in Europe were part of ships' crews and were not involved in ground fighting. In the Pacific, USMC infantry were indeed the first to use two BARs per squad. They might have gone to three, but I don't know anything about that.

Michael

Don't remember the exact unit... but i will find it in the book "On Infantry", where i've read something about the 3XBAR per squad tactical testing.

Was may be the "Rangers" the ones that used the 3xBAR per squad, test?.

Or Where the Marines in the Pacific?.

[jeffsmith]

U.S. Marines in Europe during WWII

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/HD/Frequently_Requested/Marines%20in%20WWII%20Sheets/Marines%20in%20Europe.htm

________________

[Copper]

Has there been any thought to allowing units to enter knocked out vehicles (halftracks, trucks and the like). to obtain ammo and weapons? I can see perhaps some of the weapons/ammo getting damaged and not being of use but it think its more realistic access to the gear. Think of a jeep with a load of 30 cal and bazooka ammo getting some small arms fire that knocks it out. Sinice its not destroyed or in flames I'm sure some of the gear should be available.

[Boris Balaban]

Any update on HMG down to 1 man and a INF squad only helps move the HMG?

[Michael Emrys]

US or Royal?

US. He was very emphatic about that.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

A pretty picture of WW2 US Army Camo:

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc478/Alfred_Jones_Jnr/WW2%20Camo/USArmyWW2Camo01.jpg

From the book, The World War 2 GI in Color Photographs

That is virtually identical to a camo shirt that I had in the early '60s, at least for the color pattern. I can't swear, but the cut of the garment looks the same as I recall too.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

All Infantry Squads would have a dedicated Grenadier with say upto 3x AT Rifles.

This requires some clarification please. Does this mean 3XM1 with rifle grenade adapters? I ask because, at least by this point in the war, the US Army had no ATRs that I am aware of.

Michael

[ASL Veteran]

The game is looking very nice! I like the "ASL American" green color for the US icons. That does appear to be the exact shade of green as the US cardboardtruppen use in SL / ASL.

[ASL Veteran]

This requires some clarification please. Does this mean 3XM1 with rifle grenade adapters? I ask because, at least by this point in the war, the US Army had no ATRs that I am aware of.

Michael

Even before the war I'm not sure the US had an Anti Tank Rifle so yeah, it's probably a good assumption that he meant AT Rifle Grenades. Anyway, this just reminded me of a time, probably 30 years ago, I was playing Tobruk with a friend and an acquaintance of his who was new to wargaming. I was playing as entrenched British defenders and I had a lot of Boys ATRs. Naturally the ATRs were almost totally ineffective against their tanks and I guess I complained about it or something. My friend's acquaintance then loudly declared "Well what do you expect when you've got a bunch of boys firing your anti tank rifles!"

Yes, he was being serious when he said that.

[JoMac]

This requires some clarification please. Does this mean 3XM1 with rifle grenade adapters? I ask because, at least by this point in the war, the US Army had no ATRs that I am aware of.

Michael

Yes, a better clarification is indeed required:

1x Grenadier with Grenade adapter to fire 3x Anti-Tank or Anti Personal Grenades.

[Michael Emrys]

Even before the war I'm not sure the US had an Anti Tank Rifle...

Yes, that is my belief as well. My statement was the most conservative I could make and I wrote it that way in memory of the times I made an absolutist observation in the confidence of being perfectly correct only to be presented with irrefutable evidence that it was not so!

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Yes, a better clarification is indeed required:

1x Grenadier with Grenade adapter to fire 3x Anti-Tank or Anti Personal Grenades.

Thanks. That sounds reasonably plausible. I would also expect that might vary depending on perceived need within the squad and the resulting scrounging/trading that might ensue.

Michael

[JoMac]

Yes, and for an Engineer Squad I would expect upto 2x Grenadiers in addition to a couple of charges.

[snake_eye]

Michael Emrys

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roach

A pretty picture of WW2 US Army Camo:

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/...yWW2Camo01.jpg

From the book, The World War 2 GI in Color Photographs

That is virtually identical to a camo shirt that I had in the early '60s, at least for the color pattern. I can't swear, but the cut of the garment looks the same as I recall too.

Michael

That looks like a re-enactment picture. If you look at the vest, the pattern is very well done. Unfortunately for the pants it is somehow different.

Here after a picture taken from a Military collector review “Armes Militaria Magazine” depicting a 2nd Armored Division GI , around Saint Lo in july 1944. The cammo vest and pants are original ones, like the Garand and the webbing equipment. The only recent thing is the guy dress with it !

[sawomi]

That's what German wikipedia has to say about the camo:

The United States of America did enter the Second World War in December 1941 not unprepared, but had the army and marines in the first months of the Pacific War to cope with sometimes outdated or unsuitable equipment. During this first phase began, the developers in the U.S. also began to think about modern camouflage. As a starting point was used the Platanemuster worn by the Waffen-SS, which was well-known since 1937. But the American development was differed in conceptual design and distribution of marks from the German model. In addition, the Americans worked with other colors, as this pattern was designed for use in the Pacific. Despite the elaborate five-color printing, the U.S. pattern is in its distribution much simpler than the SS variants. America also took the idea of turning patterns, which was first used in 1931 at the Imperial military ground-sheet with the Buntfarbenaufdruck 31 That is, the color of the pattern was different on the two sides of the fabric. Originally intended only for the Pacific, the beige brown camouflage pattern should theoretically be for the beach-landing and the green-brown side for the jungle-fighting . In practice, this theory does not hold, however, especially since there were reservations on the part of soldiers to camouflage.

Historic photos also show American soldiers in France with the 'US-Flecktarn'. In the European theater of war the American turning-model was called "Spring" and "fall pattern" and was primarily issued to units of the 41st motorized infantry battalion (2nd Motorized Division). However, there where so many fatal mistakes with German troops that the U.S. model was withdrawn from Europe in 1944. In Asia, this pattern was, however, used beyond the Korean War till the 1960s.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flecktarn

Sorry for bad translation.

[Roach]

Hi snake_eye,

Yes, the picture I posted was staged for the book in about 92, 93 (my aging memory is not precise about the dates!), but I just wanted to clarify that the uniforms are not reproductions. As I recall we had about two or three sets of the army camo in nice condition for the photo shoot. It was pooled by different collectors but for the photos they were mixed and matched to make up complete, better matched suits due to some colour differences; this was either due to fading through wear and tear or maybe just differences in manufacture. I can assure you though that the camo suits, both jackets and pants, as well as everything else (again, as with your picture, barring the guys, obviously!) were original - the chaps were very picky about that sort of thing! :-D

Hi Michael,

When I was collecting GI 'stuff' in the early 80s there was apparently a commercial range of camo either being produced or, more probably, had been produced (can't remember which - as I said, age is very bad for my memory!) in the US after the war and which was very similar to the WW2 Army pattern so maybe that was what you had? I never had any myself, never saw any for that matter, and never had any original camo either - my pockets weren't deep enough! :-D

[sawomi]

US camouflage patterns at camopedia:

http://camopedia.camouflagesociety.org/index.php?title=USA

[snake_eye]

Hi Roach,

I am a little bit embarrassed to tell you my feeling . I truly think that the collectors really thought having genuine camo. If the vests look, from the picture, like the real stuff, the pants, on the guy standing on the left, indeed don’t.

Just look closely at the following close up of your picture to see the difference. For the left pants, the blotches pattern is really different as well as the tissue which seems to be less thick than the HBT used on the genuine camo. It reminds me of some camo made for the Vietnamese ARVN, Rangers or Marines during the ‘60’s or Asiatic country.

Having collected these things for years and made expertise at different times on demand, I would not buy the left pants. Their blotches pattern made me react right away.

[Roach]

Hi snake eye,

No problem. If you think it's wrong, you think it's wrong, so fair enough. Personally, I don't have your expertise so cannot give any useful opinion either way.

All I can say is that the camo belongs to guys who did/do had/have many years of experience collecting GI cast offs at the usual great expense (I'm still trying to fathom what makes a sane man do that?!!) and I'd be amazed if they'd offered up hookey gear as originals for prime examples for photo work, so really, I have no reason to doubt them.

But on the other hand nobody is infallible and as I'm no expert I'm happy to bow to superior judgement and if that superior judgement is yours then so be it. :-)

[GonzoAttacker]

Bottom line this game is unique and caters to game plying grognards around the world, I play the game two fold in practicing techniques of warfare on the field of battle and designing detail maps so others can have fun playing each other or just against the computer.

Modding provides eye candy to the above. it is way down the list for me. so back on topic for me. I am really happy to see game moving along and discussions on wants and needs. Hopefully we will get the web site and forum space soon to discuss our plans for scenarios, mods, and game play expectations soon. with demo. prepay, and a AAR from BETA land and then the game.

This harvest was put in a barrel 10 years ago, and like a fine wine that has aged well it is now ready to drink at its peak of aging and the tasting will begin when the wine maker says it is so.

Thanks Steve, Santa, for early Christmas Present, now you and the elves get back to work to add bows and ribbons on the final gift for presentation.

Thanks,

Michael "Gonzo" Gonzalez

aka. The Rooster

[snake_eye]

Hi snake eye,

No problem. If you think it's wrong, you think it's wrong, so fair enough. Personally, I don't have your expertise so cannot give any useful opinion either way.

All I can say is that the camo belongs to guys who did/do had/have many years of experience collecting GI cast offs at the usual great expense (I'm still trying to fathom what makes a sane man do that?!!) and I'd be amazed if they'd offered up hookey gear as originals for prime examples for photo work, so really, I have no reason to doubt them.

But on the other hand nobody is infallible and as I'm no expert I'm happy to bow to superior judgement and if that superior judgement is yours then so be it. :-)

Thanks Roach,

We are not going to focus on the do and don't of the camo, since we could speak about these for hours with pleasure. Just one thing, if expertise comes around after many years, that doesn't mean that it brings an absolute truth. Sometimes and more often than wished, a mistake is not that far away. We have all known that the hard way, bringing home what looked like a good buy and which turned out to be a buying error. The good thing is to enjoy the history going around these pieces of equipment.

Cheers

[Marc Anton]

Is it correct, CM:N wont have a turn-based multiplayer game mode ?

[Chainsaw]

Where you got that idea from?

[Marc Anton]

CM:SF has only a real-time MP-mode - CM:N uses the same engine. 1+1=2

[Field Marshal Blücher]

CM:SF has only a real-time MP-mode - CM:N uses the same engine. 1+1=2

Well, CM:SF doesn't have TCP/IP WEGO. But you can still play PBEM WEGO, which is an MP mode of sorts.