Tank v. tank spotting.. (what a ***** mess)

[SDG]

Its been a while since I played CM and enough time has passed for me to forget just how I effing hate the tank v. tank spotting system.

Iam at the 4th (?) scen of the new German campaign and getting my *** handed to me partially because I am bad at the game but I am pretty damn sure that the vehicle v. vehicle spotting system is a complete mess.

I have three tank destroyers lined up, unbuttoned, have visual confirmation of the rough location of enemy shermans, range 900 m.

I send out some VS milita so that the shermans start shooting at them, and this is exactly what happens, they get shot at, but honey badger doesnt care and my TDs just cannot spot the perpetrator.

A turn later one of my TDs gets spotted, takes some 4 hits, gets destroyed while his buddies just sit next to like blind bats not being able to spot an actively engaging sherman.

Am I doing something wrong?

My approach was always this:

- spot enemy tank with infantry,

- transfer info to friendly tank,

- make enemy tank fire and therefore reveal its location.

 

Oooh but not this time. Dont know if something has changed or spotting is just a goddamn lottery.

 

[Silentkilarz]

You did the right things. Sometimes the cookie crumbles in the wrong way. I know I've had the opposite happen too where a tank somehow spots another tank through several lines of bocage or trees. What level exp is your TD crews?

[Vanir Ausf B]

32 minutes ago, SDG said:

 or spotting is just a goddamn lottery.

It is and always has been. There are things you can do to stack the odds in your favor, and it sounds like you did that to a degree. But in Combat Mission, and I would argue in real life, doing everything the right way doesn't guarantee success. Of course, the corollary to that is sometimes you can screw up and still win.

[Brille]

Do you have a save file from this encounter maybe ?

Usually your discribed way should lead to results in most cases but is not guaranteed. More info would be nice to actually give some meaningful help.

Just a questions to be sure: You did open up your tanks right ? 

Trees can be also very tricky. Sometimes it seems to be sure that they would not block line of sight but they actually do just that and vise versa.

Sometimes you think you are totally concealed by trees but one enemy tanker spots that 30cm gap and shoots right through it.

[Bulletpoint]

What TDs did you use? Jpz IV by any chance?

In any case, some screenshots would be great.

[Redwolf]

I agree that at least this situation is modeled in a way that I find challenging to rate as realistic: shooter standing and target moving, where the shooter is already oriented toward where the target appears and the target is not facing towards the shooter. Those situations should be devastating for the target, but in CM they usually evolves into a 50:50 chance firefight.

Similar odds but even odder when the shooter is not a vehicle but a towed gun.

[Thewood1]

There should be a sign that says X tactical game is not perfect and neither is reality on the webpage of every tactical game.  CM, Steel Beasts, Graviteam, and even ARMA all can show spotting issues like this if you play them enough.  Some more than other.  BFC has stated in the past its just a function of the mechanics used in one of the more complex spotting algorithms in wargames.  Its a balance between spotting cycles and computing power.

"in CM they usually evolves into a 50:50 chance firefight."

I sure would like to the stats on that.  I have not seen it come up anywhere near that frequently.  I think at most I might see it once a game.  But I can't actually think of a time where it happened and I thought it was completely impossible.  If someone were really convinced its this frequent, bring a save.  You get one after every turn just save it and post it.

[FlammenwerferX]

4 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

 Jpz IV by any chance?

Is there an issue with the Jpz IVs ?

[SDG]

First pic:

VS inf getting obliterated. TDS idly watching it all happen.

Second pic:

TDs: have the info on the tank

 

TDs do have a mostly clear view on the target:

 

(and dont tell me that single tree is obstructing the view, because during the next turns this td got spotted and obliterated by that tank)

 

Anyhow, all I am saying that under certain circumstances, getting a spot should be guaranteed no matter what.

Such I circumstance would be as per my understanding when a tank, not very well concealed, within 1km, guns and machineguns ablazing firing away for TURNS at enemy untis. 

 

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, SDG said:

(and dont tell me that single tree is obstructing the view, because during the next turns this td got spotted and obliterated by that tank)

Am not claiming that is the problem... but AFAIK spotting is from the position of the CO.  It is possible for one tank to see a 2nd without the 2nd having a clear shot (ie LOS from the gun barrel) at the first.

[Bulletpoint]

4 hours ago, FlammenwerferX said:

Is there an issue with the Jpz IVs ?

Not that I have tested out or can prove. Just that in all my countless hundreds of hours playing these games, the only time I thought there was something seriously wrong with tank spotting was when a JpzIV sitting on a location with full view over a big field let a whole platoon of Shermans approach from 1500m till they were literally driving past. Weather was flurries, but that didn't stop other units from spotting the tanks.

Anyway, in this case, it's not Jpzs so it's off topic.

I don't see anything in these screenshots that suggest why those TDs should not spot a firing Sherman. Nothing wrong with the tactics either.

@SDG when you select one of the TDs and draw a target line to the Sherman, does it show you have LOF? Sometimes the game denies LOF for no apparent reason.

The low hedge in front of the TDs shouldn't block line of fire, especially since the target is elevated.

[Thewood1]

If you can screen cap all of that, why not post the save?

[Silentkilarz]

Have you Tried replaying the turn and seeing if anything changes?

[MikeyD]

Here's a fun exercise.
Check your real world area in Google Earth and measure out how far 900m really is. Then go to Street View to check what you can actually see from that spot. For the example I randomly picked the German town of Linnich. I tried this for downtown Boston awhile ago and much beyond 180m you lose your 'target' in all the clutter.

In-game if you've got lots of experienced eyeballs all in the chain of command things are going to get spotted pretty quick. If you've got individuals out of the command loop things will take more time.

Oh, and I just checked. That 'Erosclub' in the lower right corner of the overhead is indeed a strip joint.

 

Edited February 23 by MikeyD

[Anonymous_Jonze]

Interesting on the comments about the jpiv's. I just played the second round of chaumont and was impressed by their spotting. 

[Freyberg]

There is an element of the dice roll about it, but a few things to note:

• You haven't got very good cover, poking up over a low hedge (through the hedge in the case of the left TD);
• None of your TDs are keyholed, so they're spottable from all angles;
• The goodies have a lot of infantry that can see you (more than you have deployed forward), who will be passing on spotting intel (the forward-deployed infantry you do have are panicked);
• The Sherman is a tall tank, so may be getting a slight spotting advantage in tall terrain with a lot of low cover (fences, hedges, low flora);
• The spots you are getting are probably just a view of the Sherman's TC, which is why you can't shoot at it.

[Artkin]

3 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Here's a fun exercise.
Check your real world area in Google Earth and measure out how far 900m really is. Then go to Street View to check what you can actually see from that spot. For the example I randomly picked the German town of Linnich. I tried this for downtown Boston awhile ago and much beyond 180m you lose your 'target' in all the clutter.

In-game if you've got lots of experienced eyeballs all in the chain of command things are going to get spotted pretty quick. If you've got individuals out of the command loop things will take more time.

Oh, and I just checked. That 'Erosclub' in the lower right corner of the overhead is indeed a strip joint.

 

Trying to see things with a camera on a computer screen is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than in real life. 

[Brille]

15 hours ago, SDG said:

First pic:

VS inf getting obliterated. TDS idly watching it all happen.

Second pic:

TDs: have the info on the tank

 

TDs do have a mostly clear view on the target:

 

(and dont tell me that single tree is obstructing the view, because during the next turns this td got spotted and obliterated by that tank)

 

Anyhow, all I am saying that under certain circumstances, getting a spot should be guaranteed no matter what.

Such I circumstance would be as per my understanding when a tank, not very well concealed, within 1km, guns and machineguns ablazing firing away for TURNS at enemy untis. 

 

Hard to tell by the pictures alone but I guess those hedges might be a problem. The first line might be ignored by the vehicle, just like when you drive close to hedgerows.

Though the second line might pose  a problem with the LOS and LOF. In my experience they are not as clear cut as it shows you in game...much like with treebranches.

And while I know that the optics of these tankdestroyers are mounted on the roof it can still cause problems, be it to a blocked gun or by the game engine...it´s just my experience.

Yes, you have been shot by the other tank but I guess thats because he is taller/has a turret. That sometimes gives you an advantage in spotting and shooting...not always.

So it can be that while you could not spot over the hedge (or just bad) due to the low profile the turreted tank got a small glimpse of yours over the hedge.

Not saying that what I say is 100%  fact just ideas and personal experience.

And a save file would be still appreciated to get a better view on the situation.

17 hours ago, FlammenwerferX said:

Is there an issue with the Jpz IVs ?

Only got very rare encounters with those and those times that I personally fielded them were even rarer. However in one PvP match their spotting was very bad, even though they were defending.

It was a CMRT scenario from which I forgotten the name: My handful of Panzer 70 had to delay a T34/85 push. The weather was not the best due to snowfall but you could see and shoot at least 600m out. In at least 3 cases my Jagdpanzers were spotted before they even got solid spots on moving T34. Though I must say that they were just regulars, while some of the T´s were veteran and my opponent rolled them very slowly through the field, while using hull or partial hull down positions where he could.

On my part there was mostly only flat ground, so they often were standing in the bare open.

On a side note it was a bit suspicious that almost all of my Panzers got taken out through the lower hull, except for one that got his gun damaged and later was taken out from the side/back as he retreated.

 

 

[Bulletpoint]

11 hours ago, MikeyD said:

In-game if you've got lots of experienced eyeballs all in the chain of command things are going to get spotted pretty quick.

 

9 hours ago, Freyberg said:

The goodies have a lot of infantry that can see you (more than you have deployed forward), who will be passing on spotting intel (the forward-deployed infantry you do have are panicked);

 

This is not how the game works though. Spotting is done by each individual unit - they cannot help each other directly. Only thing that matters is whether the spotting unit has a contact marker for the enemy unit, and in this case, all of SDG's units have received the marker. What happens to the infantry after they pass on this info doesn't matter for spotting purposes.

But I really don't know what to think of this case. It could simply be massive bad luck that SDG has three vehicles who all kept failing their spotting checks against one single Sherman over multiple turns, even though it's actively firing, which normally gives away the position very fast. And then the Sherman got  lucky to spot the non-moving TD in the hedge, even though it's not firing.

It could also be some kind of corner case where the game engine somehow doesn't allow LOS in one direction even though there should be.

[Halmbarte]

6 hours ago, Brille said:

Hard to tell by the pictures alone but I guess those hedges might be a problem. The first line might be ignored by the vehicle, just like when you drive close to hedgerows.

Though the second line might pose  a problem with the LOS and LOF. In my experience they are not as clear cut as it shows you in game...much like with treebranches.

And while I know that the optics of these tankdestroyers are mounted on the roof it can still cause problems, be it to a blocked gun or by the game engine...it´s just my experience.

Yes, you have been shot by the other tank but I guess thats because he is taller/has a turret. That sometimes gives you an advantage in spotting and shooting...not always.

So it can be that while you could not spot over the hedge (or just bad) due to the low profile the turreted tank got a small glimpse of yours over the hedge.

Not saying that what I say is 100%  fact just ideas and personal experience.

And a save file would be still appreciated to get a better view on the situation.

Only got very rare encounters with those and those times that I personally fielded them were even rarer. However in one PvP match their spotting was very bad, even though they were defending.

It was a CMRT scenario from which I forgotten the name: My handful of Panzer 70 had to delay a T34/85 push. The weather was not the best due to snowfall but you could see and shoot at least 600m out. In at least 3 cases my Jagdpanzers were spotted before they even got solid spots on moving T34. Though I must say that they were just regulars, while some of the T´s were veteran and my opponent rolled them very slowly through the field, while using hull or partial hull down positions where he could.

On my part there was mostly only flat ground, so they often were standing in the bare open.

On a side note it was a bit suspicious that almost all of my Panzers got taken out through the lower hull, except for one that got his gun damaged and later was taken out from the side/back as he retreated.

 

 

Were the only hits on the lower front or just the kills shots? 

I suspect it's the latter. Panther is proof against a whole bunch of pokey things on the turret front and upper hull, which means (barring shot trap shots) your tanks are going to die from lower hull hits from the front. 

H

[Brille]

1 hour ago, Halmbarte said:

Were the only hits on the lower front or just the kills shots? 

I suspect it's the latter. Panther is proof against a whole bunch of pokey things on the turret front and upper hull, which means (barring shot trap shots) your tanks are going to die from lower hull hits from the front. 

H

Well it was the first and the last hit on these tanks as they usually dont survive one penetration.

The penetration itself dont surprise me as much because that is often the area where a tank is not as well armored.

 

But I find it suspicious that they were all hit on the lower hull the first time. I will keep an eye on that.

[Halmbarte]

I don't know if the Tac AI deliberately targets lower front if that's the only place they can reliably get a pen, but I suspect not. 

Right now I'm playing CW vs Sov T64s w/M60A1s. My tankers bounce shells all day long off the turret front and upper hull, even when the lower hull is visible. 

I swear I'm shooting all the subsystems off the outside of the T64s because I can't get a pen. 

H

[SDG]

A lot has been said in this topic.

My issue and the bottom line of my argument is:

I know its a game, therefore there is uncertainty involved which is represented in the form of dice rolls BUT under certain conditions a unit should become spotted regardless of chance. It is completely unrealistic that:

- in broad daylight;

- within reasoable distance (900 m is nothing if the crew is using sights with magnification or the TC is using his bino)

- a not very well hidden/camouflaged tank

- that is shooting its main gun for several turns

- while also letting it rip with its 50 cal mg using TRACER (!!) rounds

 

can remain unspotted while 3 enemy TDs are closely monitoring the battlefield. And no I dont care if there are certain objects that partially obstruct my TDs view and they dont have a perfectly clear line of sight to the target. That tank should at least become detected to that extent that my tds at least have a rough idea as to where to put their AP rounds regardless of not gettin a full view of the enemy. 

 

[Redwolf]

34 minutes ago, SDG said:

A lot has been said in this topic.

My issue and the bottom line of my argument is:

I know its a game, therefore there is uncertainty involved which is represented in the form of dice rolls BUT under certain conditions a unit should become spotted regardless of chance. It is completely unrealistic that:

- in broad daylight;

- within reasoable distance (900 m is nothing if the crew is using sights with magnification or the TC is using his bino)

- a not very well hidden/camouflaged tank

- that is shooting its main gun for several turns

- while also letting it rip with its 50 cal mg using TRACER (!!) rounds

 

can remain unspotted while 3 enemy TDs are closely monitoring the battlefield. And no I dont care if there are certain objects that partially obstruct my TDs view and they dont have a perfectly clear line of sight to the target. That tank should at least become detected to that extent that my tds at least have a rough idea as to where to put their AP rounds regardless of not gettin a full view of the enemy. 

 

Especially when the spotting unit is standing.

[Brille]

@SDGRegardless of your claims and if this oddity is right or not: You have been asked multiple times now for a save file for further inspection. You clearly have the file as you made multiple screenshots after another request.

You are certainly not obliged in any way to post one but it would certainly help to prove or disprove this behavior and probably to get to the reason why that is.

52 minutes ago, SDG said:

can remain unspotted while 3 enemy TDs are closely monitoring the battlefield. And no I dont care if there are certain objects that partially obstruct my TDs view and they dont have a perfectly clear line of sight to the target. That tank should at least become detected to that extent that my tds at least have a rough idea as to where to put their AP rounds regardless of not gettin a full view of the enemy. 

This would actually be nice when tanks could shoot somekind of blind directed fire into a certain location. For example when a tank is clearly visible but just so happens to vanish in a dust/smoke cloud they could fire 1-2 rounds in the last known location. It clearly was done in reality. Problem is just how to program this so that this may not occur to much or in the wrong situations...

 

However if there is any chance of it it probably will be in CMx3 rather than with an update to the actual games.