Combat Mission Cold War - British Army On the Rhine

[JM Stuff]

11 minutes ago, Sequoia said:

IIRC , the French Army went through a major reorganization in the time period as well. So, if an expert on the French Army would commit to doing the research, perhaps that would be the only way it could happen.

Captain, are any of us young men anymore?

 

 

We can be happy that we now moving our soldiers in a game, and not moving our body ourself in the mud, fear, indecision and probably also, sacrifices, if this war would happend in the past, we will not be there today to talking quitly about, or perhaps some of us would be forced to learn russian, and for certain of us burning to fight, would be another oportunity now helpfull.

Cheers

Edited February 3, 2023 by JM Stuff

[laurent 22]

23 minutes ago, Sequoia said:

IIRC , the French Army went through a major reorganization in the time period as well. So, if an expert on the French Army would commit to doing the research, perhaps that would be the only way it could happen.

Captain, are any of us young men anymore?

 

 

I can help: I was around 12 in the 80s when my father was serving near Frankfurt, so I have expertise in the French army. Also remember the Canadians because we did our food shopping in their stores. I propose myself as artistic director with my in-depth knowledge as shown by this drawing drawn from my childhood memories:

[laurent 22]

db

Edited February 3, 2023 by laurent 22

[Combatintman]

32 minutes ago, DesertFox said:

Good to hear that. Archival research wouldn´t be what I would do either if not being payed fulltime for it.

Actually my research in regimental journals turned up photos of the wedding of one of my former bosses, you don't get that stuff from the National Archives at Kew.  I also found a whole load of stuff about @Pete Wenman's former regiment in the same time period.   Now I get that wedding photos are not what we're after for research but there was a whole lot of good stuff that filled in the gaps from the more general sources. If I had the time then for sure I would dig deeper and have done so when researching battlefield tours but I found enough to make the campaign for which the basic map schematic that @The_Capt posted earlier in this thread.

[The_Capt]

18 hours ago, domfluff said:

Chieftain was the heaviest tank NATO had, on the best tank country. All of the heaviest Soviet armour was pointed in that sector. You'll see more T-64 and later T-80 than you will against the US.

The maps should often be more open, with defences on ridgelines. Defence in Depth and Counter-attack is the basic plan, on all levels. The UK formations should have similar combined-arms company teams to the US, with the aforementioned differences. 

https://wotinspector.com/en/webapp?targetVehicleId=57937,34898,30547,23892&mode=xray.armor&platform=pc

No idea how accurate this is but like Steel Beasts the hardcore WoT players tend to be as obsessive as we are - and before anyone asks, no this is not what BFC uses in their modelling, their engine pre-dates WoT.  To be honest I strongly suspect suitcase deals in underground parking lots are where the guys get their in game modelling data.

Regardless, the Chieftian looks a lot like a NATO T-64 type situation in the making.  Quite a beast.  Now the fire control and targeting will be the thing.  And of course that changed within the time periods we are talking.

Oh and absolutely T-80 country…feel the flavour.

[Centurian52]

The Germans and the British were the top two forces I wanted to see added, so this is awesome news! I think I was a bit more eager to see the Germans, but I'm happy with the British (I can wait on the Germans, just as long as I do get them eventually).

The timeframe adjustment is interesting. My expectation based on the original 79-82 timeframe was that the Chieftain would not perform any better than the M60. My reasoning was that HEAT and APFSDS ammunition of the period could defeat ANY homogeneous steel armor, even the thicker Chieftain armor (Stillbrew composite armor won't be added until 1986). And while the Chieftain does have a more powerful 120mm gun, it still has the same ammunition it had in 1965, which doesn't perform any better than the 105mm ammunition available to the M60 in 79-82 (L23 APFSDS doesn't come out until 1985).

But pushing the timeframe back to 76 might change things a bit. I don't know what ammunition the Soviets had available in 76, but perhaps there is a chance that the thicker armor of the Chieftain will provide a noticeable increase in survivability over the M60 in 1976, as opposed to 1982 when I expect both vehicles to be reliably killed by any AT weapon. And of course the best round the M60 has in 1976 is the M728 APDS, which the L15 APDS fired by the Chieftain does outperform. So while I don't expect the Chieftain to have any noticeable advantage in survivability or firepower over the M60 in 1982, perhaps it will have noticeably better survivability and firepower in 1976.

And of course I look forward to seeing the L1A1 in action. Except for small numbers in the hands of Fallschirmjager and Mujahedeen, we haven't seen fully battle rifle armed units in Combat Mission before. I expect the British infantry to perform just as well as US infantry in long range engagements, where both the L1A1 and M16 are essentially functioning as high magazine capacity semi-automatic rifles (the Brits might actually perform even better at long range, since every infantry squad has a GPMG). But I expect them not to perform as well in close range engagements, where the assault rifle armed US infantry switch to using their rifles like submachine guns, and the battle rifle armed Brits will essentially still just have high capacity semi-automatic rifles.

EDIT: After perusing the Steel Beasts wiki ammunition data it does look like a lot of pre-76 Soviet ammo will really struggle to get through the frontal armor of the Chieftain. It won't be immune by any measure, but I think it's going to be a beast.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Centurian52

[domfluff]

Yes, heyday of the Chieftain would have been the sixties, but 1976 should still demonstrate the difference. Challenger 1 came in in 1983 or so, so the core game is right at the point where Chieftain was being replaced.

[The_Capt]

47 minutes ago, Centurian52 said:

The Germans and the British were the top two forces I wanted to see added, so this is awesome news! I think I was a bit more eager to see the Germans, but I'm happy with the British (I can wait on the Germans, just as long as I do get them eventually).

The timeframe adjustment is interesting. My expectation based on the original 79-82 timeframe was that the Chieftain would not perform any better than the M60. My reasoning was that HEAT and APFSDS ammunition of the period could defeat ANY homogeneous steel armor, even the thicker Chieftain armor (Stillbrew composite armor won't be added until 1986). And while the Chieftain does have a more powerful 120mm gun, it still has the same ammunition it had in 1965, which doesn't perform any better than the 105mm ammunition available to the M60 in 79-82 (L23 APFSDS doesn't come out until 1985).

But pushing the timeframe back to 76 might change things a bit. I don't know what ammunition the Soviets had available in 76, but perhaps there is a chance that the thicker armor of the Chieftain will provide a noticeable increase in survivability over the M60 in 1976, as opposed to 1982 when I expect both vehicles to be reliably killed by any AT weapon. And of course the best round the M60 has in 1976 is the M728 APDS, which the L15 APDS fired by the Chieftain does outperform. So while I don't expect the Chieftain to have any noticeable advantage in survivability or firepower over the M60 in 1982, perhaps it will have noticeably better survivability and firepower in 1976.

And of course I look forward to seeing the L1A1 in action. Except for small numbers in the hands of Fallschirmjager and Mujahedeen, we haven't seen fully battle rifle armed units in Combat Mission before. I expect the British infantry to perform just as well as US infantry in long range engagements, where both the L1A1 and M16 are essentially functioning as high magazine capacity semi-automatic rifles (the Brits might actually perform even better at long range, since every infantry squad has a GPMG). But I expect them not to perform as well in close range engagements, where the assault rifle armed US infantry switch to using their rifles like submachine guns, and the battle rifle armed Brits will essentially still just have high capacity semi-automatic rifles.

EDIT: After perusing the Steel Beasts wiki ammunition data it does look like a lot of pre-76 Soviet ammo will really struggle to get through the frontal armor of the Chieftain. It won't be immune by any measure, but I think it's going to be a beast.

Spent time on Steel Beasts as well.  For the Soviets, as far as I can tell:

125mm - not much change as the BM22 and BK-14M cover off the entire time period.  They do lose the AT8 before 1979 though.

115mm - biggest change as they roll back to the BM21 vice BM28

100mm - goes from BM 25 to BM 20. 

None of these are overly dramatic.  The Chieftain looks like it may have an ammo challenge on its hands with that APDS round, the L23A1 does not look like it came online until 1983.  The L7 105mm will be firing the M728 (already in game) as it was basically the same for both UK and US versions.  On the Leos it will likely be the M735 or DM23.  And of course all the HESH and HEAT rounds. 

Oh my this is gonna be good. 

[Der Zeitgeist]

As a German, I'm not at all bothered by seeing the UK go first here. I always found the British module one of the most interesting forces for CMSF, and developing the Bundeswehr or NVA stuff is a lot of work, of course.

Two questions, though:

• Will we get a similar campaign structure to the US CMCW campaign, where the missions remain the same but the equipment changes through the years? Will there be a 1982 UK campaign at all?
• I would love to see a smaller expansion extending the time frame to the mid-late 80s. Call it a equipment & TO&E pack or something. Just the vehicles and formations, nothing else, for a reasonable development time & cost. Just to give developers the chance to build some scenarios in the time where the Soviets had ERA on their tanks while NATO didn't have tandem warheads or 120mm M1s yet. 

[The_Capt]

10 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

Will we get a similar campaign structure to the US CMCW campaign, where the missions remain the same but the equipment changes through the years? Will there be a 1982 UK campaign at all?

I cannot tell you how much extra work it took to do a 79 and 82 US campaign.  When we started I was all “well simply roll back the clock, keep same maps and AI…voila and afternoons trouble”.  It took days of work to line up 79 and 82, I was ready to quit at more than one point - the freakin uniform crisis of Feb ‘21 made the pain and suffering of COVID pale in comparison.

So, maybe…if we have enough time…but do not count on it.  I am leaning more towards “give them the scenarios and let them move the time line if they like”. 

[Butschi]

Will there be additional flavour objects? Cars would be awesome, I mean, Germany without cars feels very... non-German

[Sequoia]

Years ago, I recall a post from someone at Battlefront saying they would only add cars as flavor objects if they coded them to take damage. As far as I know, that never happened.

[Simcoe]

The original Soviet campaign is my favorite in all the games but one thing I would've liked to see is more meeting engagements. The original is all attacks against hasty or prepared defenses (except for one mission of course) but what about a Soviet battalion racing to take an objective against small scattered forces and then holding against a NATO counterattack, two forces accidentally meeting or trying to rescue a VDV unit holding a vital bridge behind enemy lines. 

Are there any plans for a more fluid Soviet campaign in the new module?

[Pinetree]

15 hours ago, Combatintman said:

The best online sources I have found are the regimental journals to be honest and trawling through the National Archives is not something that is within my bandwidth.

If you need a source, try this: The British Army in Germany: An Organizational History 1947-2004. It's high level so doesn't got into tactical detail but will tell you what units were where at a certain time. Here's a snippet from 1981:

 

[Combatintman]

1 hour ago, Pinetree said:

If you need a source, try this: The British Army in Germany: An Organizational History 1947-2004. It's high level so doesn't got into tactical detail but will tell you what units were where at a certain time. Here's a snippet from 1981:

 

I've accessed the free bits - it is pretty good but research elsewhere shows that it is not without its faults.

[rocketman]

On 2/1/2023 at 7:49 PM, Bil Hardenberger said:

Hate to disappoint, but sorry, no winter or snow in this module. I could get into the reasons for this, but would hate to bore you all... basically, we can only demand so much of Battlefront's operations before Steve tells us to EFF off.   

Bil

I know the reason why we don't get snow/winter - it is because they have penciled in a module called Northern Storm featuring Finland, Sweden and Norway

I know, pipe dream...

CW is becoming my favourite modern CM game so any new things to play with is most welcome.

[The_Capt]

8 hours ago, Simcoe said:

The original Soviet campaign is my favorite in all the games but one thing I would've liked to see is more meeting engagements. The original is all attacks against hasty or prepared defenses (except for one mission of course) but what about a Soviet battalion racing to take an objective against small scattered forces and then holding against a NATO counterattack, two forces accidentally meeting or trying to rescue a VDV unit holding a vital bridge behind enemy lines. 

Are there any plans for a more fluid Soviet campaign in the new module?

I think we can come up with something…

[DanonQM]

Excited to see the Brits coming to CW. Is there any chance of the Saladin making the '76 cutoff? I believe the last of them were being phased out of units in that year, but more importantly I just adore it.

[Combatintman]

1 hour ago, DanonQM said:

Excited to see the Brits coming to CW. Is there any chance of the Saladin making the '76 cutoff? I believe the last of them were being phased out of units in that year, but more importantly I just adore it.

As @The_Capt explained the TO@Es aren't finalised but I think the Saladin, which I also love btw, would be a stretch because by that time it was pretty much relegated to other stuff like UNFICYP.  Well just have to see.

[domfluff]

Honestly I'm mostly excited about seeing the CVR(T) line in context and in full. All the major vehicles are in CMSF already, aside from Scorpion and Striker.

[EvilTwinn]

1 hour ago, domfluff said:

Honestly I'm mostly excited about seeing the CVR(T) line in context and in full. All the major vehicles are in CMSF already, aside from Scorpion and Striker.

Honestly that's the biggest one for me. Everything else is more or less similar to the Americans. A tank platoon acts more or less like a tank platoon and a rifle platoon, while gonna be somewhat different due to the difference in AT weapons, is still gonna perform more or less like a rifle platoon. The one thing that's truly unique as far as ORBATs go is the CVRT en masse. How effective are they at supporting the battalion fight against their intended foe? In Shock Force we got a bit of them, but the enemy there tended to be far less mechanized and the scenarios didn't necessarily cater to it. For that matter, how does the 76 on the Scorpion perform? 

I'm excited to find out.

[The_MonkeyKing]

I have nothing productive to add but I love this announcement. 

I would prefer to see some more soviet A-category actions with the soviets. Last time we got to see the overmatched B-cat equipment in little too much detail with the soviet campaign. 

[Combatintman]

2 hours ago, EvilTwinn said:

Honestly that's the biggest one for me. Everything else is more or less similar to the Americans. A tank platoon acts more or less like a tank platoon and a rifle platoon, while gonna be somewhat different due to the difference in AT weapons, is still gonna perform more or less like a rifle platoon. The one thing that's truly unique as far as ORBATs go is the CVRT en masse. How effective are they at supporting the battalion fight against their intended foe? In Shock Force we got a bit of them, but the enemy there tended to be far less mechanized and the scenarios didn't necessarily cater to it. For that matter, how does the 76 on the Scorpion perform? 

I'm excited to find out.

Having written the TO&Es I can guarantee you there are a bunch of differences - the US and British mechanised infantry units will be very different indeed.  No .50 cals on the AFVs, no Dragons and no TOW equivalents in any great numbers prior to the introduction of MILAN.  So before that you get Wombat which will be a very much more tricky system to employ against T-64 than TOW.  I also wouldn't expect to see CVR(T) en masse and of course the clue's in the name as to how they should be employed.

[EvilTwinn]

16 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

Having written the TO&Es I can guarantee you there are a bunch of differences - the US and British mechanised infantry units will be very different indeed.  No .50 cals on the AFVs, no Dragons and no TOW equivalents in any great numbers prior to the introduction of MILAN.  So before that you get Wombat which will be a very much more tricky system to employ against T-64 than TOW.  I also wouldn't expect to see CVR(T) en masse and of course the clue's in the name as to how they should be employed.

I'm not going to disagree with you there, but 8 vehicles in the battalion recce platoon is en masse, even if it's just achieving the battalion commander's PIRs. 

[Halmbarte]

57 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

Having written the TO&Es I can guarantee you there are a bunch of differences - the US and British mechanised infantry units will be very different indeed.  No .50 cals on the AFVs, no Dragons and no TOW equivalents in any great numbers prior to the introduction of MILAN.  So before that you get Wombat which will be a very much more tricky system to employ against T-64 than TOW.  I also wouldn't expect to see CVR(T) en masse and of course the clue's in the name as to how they should be employed.

What are the UK infantry equipped with to deal with tanks? No HMG or ATGMs is going to be rough. 

H