Combat Mission Cold War - British Army On the Rhine

[Artkin]

Will soviet marines be considered for the first module? What if anything is planned for the soviets? 

Denmark was supposed to be hit with a tank brigade from the sea IIRC.

Oh right and something like 500 tac nukes too.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Artkin

[The_Capt]

28 minutes ago, Simcoe said:

To all the team working on this just to spark some discussion.

What made you choose BAOR over the other NATO factions? How will they contrast with the US forces?

Also, what's behind the choice to move the timeline back? Is there a certain dynamic that you can get in mid 1970's that you can't in 1979?

Well that is a loaded question to be honest.  Bil H will no doubt chime in but a few factors came into play as I recall:

- Resources.  We can take a really good shot at BAOR and not cripple ourselves in development for years - along with the other BFC titles.  The core team is pretty small and we were looking for a quick, but solid, follow up to the main game.  Germany would have been a lot more work, as would  any other NATO nations, and the French were just a non-starter.  Those modules will take much longer, particularly in vehicle modelling and artwork.  BAOR had a lot of new vehicle models but much more manageable in the timelines for a first DLC.

- Locale.  The Northern Plain was actually where the most likely Soviet Main effort was going to fall.  Hate to admit it but Fulda was a bit of a sideshow in the overall Soviet plan.  It made sense game wise simply because the largest market for the game is the US, and we had a lot of details on this fight - US research is a dream as they put everything out there, Canadians are a nightmare.  That said we really wanted to do the northern plains from the start and historically that is BAOR or the Germans.

- Expertise.  We had experts on both UK and Canadian orbats right out the gate, which made research a lot easier.  I joined in 1988 and had a lot of my old battlebox stuff to pull from and some old timers I still know from up the day.  On the UK side we had similar expertise.

- Timeframe.  Late 70s, early 80s is really the “tipping point” of the Cold War.  It was when the doctrine and equipment of both sides was pretty balanced, each offsetting the others strengths and weaknesses.  Before this you get the nuclear armies, which were just nuts. And after you get the  western advantage leaning into overmatch and then we start to look a lot like CMSF or BS.

- Straight up cool factor.  So how would the UK done against the Soviets?  Canadians are fun because they mix European and US kit.  You wanna know how a squadron of Leo’s would have done…well let’s find out.  Not saying the other nations are not interesting but when you add everything up it just made more sense to do BAOR next and they would be fun to play.

As to “how will they play”…totally honest…no freakin idea.  We also had no idea on the main game.  It wasn’t until I played those first few scenarios while we were early in did we see that we were onto something.  BFC doesn’t balance for gameplay or market. They literally plug in the data from research and then throw it at each other in game. The balance is almost entirely emergent.  When we do up scenarios and campaigns there is always a level of balancing that goes on but this is macro stuff like force size and enablers.  For CMCW we were amazed at how little balancing we had to do. I designed the campaigns and scenarios based on doctrine on both sides and basically how they would have gone into a fight with each other.  The fact that these led to tightly balanced fights that require deep understanding of what each side can do was all pretty much emergent design.

[The_Capt]

2 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Will soviet marines be considered for the first module? What if anything is planned for the soviets? 

Denmark was supposed to be hit with a tank brigade from the sea IIRC.

Oh right and something like 500 tac nukes too.

We definitely have plans for the Red team but are keeping those close to our chest for now. Gotta leave something for the build up.

[Simcoe]

13 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

Well that is a loaded question to be honest.  Bil H will no doubt chime in but a few factors came into play as I recall:

- Resources.  We can take a really good shot at BAOR and not cripple ourselves in development for years - along with the other BFC titles.  The core team is pretty small and we were looking for a quick, but solid, follow up to the main game.  Germany would have been a lot more work, as would  any other NATO nations, and the French were just a non-starter.  Those modules will take much longer, particularly in vehicle modelling and artwork.  BAOR had a lot of new vehicle models but much more manageable in the timelines for a first DLC.

- Locale.  The Northern Plain was actually where the most likely Soviet Main effort was going to fall.  Hate to admit it but Fulda was a bit of a sideshow in the overall Soviet plan.  It made sense game wise simply because the largest market for the game is the US, and we had a lot of details on this fight - US research is a dream as they put everything out there, Canadians are a nightmare.  That said we really wanted to do the northern plains from the start and historically that is BAOR or the Germans.

- Expertise.  We had experts on both UK and Canadian orbats right out the gate, which made research a lot easier.  I joined in 1988 and had a lot of my old battlebox stuff to pull from and some old timers I still know from up the day.  On the UK side we had similar expertise.

- Timeframe.  Late 70s, early 80s is really the “tipping point” of the Cold War.  It was when the doctrine and equipment of both sides was pretty balanced, each offsetting the others strengths and weaknesses.  Before this you get the nuclear armies, which were just nuts. And after you get the  western advantage leaning into overmatch and then we start to look a lot like CMSF or BS.

- Straight up cool factor.  So how would the UK done against the Soviets?  Canadians are fun because they mix European and US kit.  You wanna know how a squadron of Leo’s would have done…well let’s find out.  Not saying the other nations are not interesting but when you add everything up it just made more sense to do BAOR next and they would be fun to play.

As to “how will they play”…totally honest…no freakin idea.  We also had no idea on the main game.  It wasn’t until I played those first few scenarios while we were early in did we see that we were onto something.  BFC doesn’t balance for gameplay or market. They literally plug in the data from research and then throw it at each other in game. The balance is almost entirely emergent.  When we do up scenarios and campaigns there is always a level of balancing that goes on but this is macro stuff like force size and enablers.  For CMCW we were amazed at how little balancing we had to do. I designed the campaigns and scenarios based on doctrine on both sides and basically how they would have gone into a fight with each other.  The fact that these led to tightly balanced fights that require deep understanding of what each side can do was all pretty much emergent design.

Thank you for the write up!

[Artkin]

Chieftans are cool as hell. Can't wait.

[Simcoe]

1 hour ago, domfluff said:

One of the cool things about CMCW is that we'll be able to compare NATO doctrine.

The British, the West Germans and the US were all trying to solve the same problem, but did so in very different ways. Where the US were attempting to create depth through elastic defence, up-front, then rotating back, the British were more about static defence in depth and counter-attack. Where the TOW is really the centrepiece of US defence, for the British it's Chieftain, and anything armed with Swingfire is in a more supporting role. They also tend to embed recce assets down to the company level, so perhaps a pair of Scimitars in front of a mechanised company team.

Great summary. So we can expect more trenchworks, mines and infantry compared to the mobile cavalry formations of the US?

Do you think the Soviets would handle them differently? Focus on forces that could break through a deliberate defense compared to a more fluid battle?

[domfluff]

Chieftain was the heaviest tank NATO had, on the best tank country. All of the heaviest Soviet armour was pointed in that sector. You'll see more T-64 and later T-80 than you will against the US.

The maps should often be more open, with defences on ridgelines. Defence in Depth and Counter-attack is the basic plan, on all levels. The UK formations should have similar combined-arms company teams to the US, with the aforementioned differences. 

[Gkenny]

Will we see the omissions to soviet mortars rectified from the base game? By that I mean 2B14 Podnos and the 2B9 Vasilek?

Edited February 3, 2023 by Gkenny

[liamb]

16 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

You won't ever see Australian units in CM or Far East Campaigns. Sympathy is with Continental NATO Unit Fans.

Leo 1s from the Canucks, M113s from the US and British infantry squads with SLRs would go pretty close. 
 

now just need to add M113 FSV and we are good to go

[Ithikial_AU]

Can't see much of a case for the Australian Army showing up in a 1970's Cold War gone hot title focused on central Europe.  The one CM2 game where Australians may of shown up was CMSF and I think buried away in the lore BF came up with there was some mention of an Australian unit committed to the fictional invasion of Syria coming in from the Iraqi border between the US effort (ie Task Force Thunder and other units) and the British Forces. They may have been only Special Forces, can't remember fully as it's been a good few years since I delved into the material while updating the Dutch Campaign for CMSF2.

2008 would of been interesting time period to model an Australian contingent given the equipment mix. It's a real mix of US, UK and European kit, much of which was added to the game by the NATO module. The army had just switched over from Leopard 1's to M1A1 Abrams for it's main armoured force, but pulling the Leo's out of storage after a few months for a hot war isn't much of a stretch. Mix of Leo's and Abrams in the same tank formation? ASLAVs and M113's are IIRC in CM2 somewhere now so everything is 'there' model wise. Only really the Bushmaster, Carl Gustav and the F88 Austeyer are missing I think. Plus a whole bunch of programming.  Actually probably could also add our Kiwi cousins as well given the similarities...

All of the above is just from someone who is an Armchair General that's never worn a uniform and has no idea of what would be realistically possible (logistics!) but is just going by the rule of cool. Oh and a bit of national bias.  

[cheekibreekivdamke]

Do you guys plan on moving the timeframe forward sometime in the future? Hoping the the timeframe is expanded to atleast '84

[PZII]

As a German, its sad too see , that NO !!! German Bundeswehr will be on there own Soil.....
so this Game will have too wait,  till i will buy it. 
Sorry.

[Aragorn2002]

4 hours ago, PZII said:

As a German, its sad too see , that NO !!! German Bundeswehr will be on there own Soil.....
so this Game will have too wait,  till i will buy it. 
Sorry.

I share your disappointment, but buy this module. It will enable these guys to continue their work and give us the Bundeswehr too, albeit later than we hoped. 

Another encouraging aspect is that the Cold War team DELIVERS. Within a very reasonable time frame after the base game we're going to see the first module.  If it 's correct what Steve said about work on the first module starting not that long ago, we can expect more modules within another year. That's quite a difference with what we saw with for example the FR module, although that was of course a much bigger job. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Aragorn2002

[DesertFox]

On 2/1/2023 at 4:50 PM, The_Capt said:

As noted by Steve, we are well on our way and are planning for a release this year - content and full scope remains TBA.

Great news. Can´t wait. Was born in Wolfenbuettel near Brunswick in Lower Saxony. 1st Dragoon Guards were stationed there in Northampton Bks and IIRC alotted the sector between A2-Highway and Harz mountains for delaying action.

Microsoft Word - BAOR July 1989 Final Draft 9.0 (orbat85.nl)

[JM Stuff]

26 minutes ago, DesertFox said:

Great news. Can´t wait. Was born in Wolfenbuettel near Brunswick in Lower Saxony. 1st Dragoon Guards were stationed there in Northampton Bks and IIRC alotted the sector between A2-Highway and Harz mountains for delaying action.

Microsoft Word - BAOR July 1989 Final Draft 9.0 (orbat85.nl)

Nice infos I saw something similar in the past, or perhaps is the same but was classified and the difference is that I don't take more part now.

Cheers

Edited February 3, 2023 by JM Stuff

[Combatintman]

27 minutes ago, DesertFox said:

Great news. Can´t wait. Was born in Wolfenbuettel near Brunswick in Lower Saxony. 1st Dragoon Guards were stationed there in Northampton Bks and IIRC alotted the sector between A2-Highway and Harz mountains for delaying action.

Microsoft Word - BAOR July 1989 Final Draft 9.0 (orbat85.nl)

16th/5th Queen's Royal Lancers were there during the time frame of the draft British campaign which is set in the era of the very brief experiment to get rid of brigades and substitute them for four armoured divisions with two task forces under command plus a couple of Germany and UK-based field forces vice the three divisions that were previously fielded.  It also explains why, as@The_Capthas explained, that we have a whole bunch of British TO&Es for potential inclusion as this was an era of chopping and changing - or to put it another way ... something that worked was changed for something that didn't and was (mostly) changed back to the thing that worked in the first place.  To say it was challenging to research is an understatement as almost nothing of substance on 1 (BR) Corps task forces in the late 70s is readily available on the internet.  Most Cold War stuff that is readily available covers the period from 1985 until the end of the Cold War.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Combatintman

[Lieutenant Ash]

Hi, new poster

Swingfire antitank missile system, fitted to the FV102 Striker and FV438 (based on FV432 APC). Will be interested to see how this will be implemented in game. Quote from Wikipedia:

"The name refers to its ability to make a rapid turn of up to ninety degrees after firing to bring it onto the line of the sighting mechanism. This means that the launcher vehicle could be concealed and the operator, using a portable sight, placed at a distance in a more advantageous firing position."

It would be exellent if you can replicate this ability in game.

Anyhow just glad to see British forces being added so quickly.

Thanks

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

I'm very curious about the swingfire as well, but I doubt it will be possible. But who knows, maybe Battlefront surprises us.

[DesertFox]

1 hour ago, Combatintman said:

To say it was challenging to research is an understatement as almost nothing of substance on 1 (BR) Corps task forces in the late 70s is readily available on the internet.  Most Cold War stuff that is readily available covers the period from 1985 until the end of the Cold War.

Yep, not the classical wargaming period featured by John Tiller like Fulda Gap 85 or North German Plain 85. Thankfully some MoD documents are now unclassified and available at the National Archives at Kew. See Bibligraphy of the linked Word above.

[Combatintman]

13 minutes ago, DesertFox said:

Yep, not the classical wargaming period featured by John Tiller like Fulda Gap 85 or North German Plain 85. Thankfully some MoD documents are now unclassified and available at the National Archives at Kew. See Bibligraphy of the linked Word above.

The best online sources I have found are the regimental journals to be honest and trawling through the National Archives is not something that is within my bandwidth.

[The_Capt]

9 hours ago, cheekibreekivdamke said:

Do you guys plan on moving the timeframe forward sometime in the future? Hoping the the timeframe is expanded to atleast '84

Folks, we have a whole lot of plans for CMCW...we plotted out an entire franchise.  However, how much of it that will ever see daylight is a continual negotiation with reality.  We are only going to be able to go so far on CMx2, and then we will just have to see what CMx3 looks like.

Bil H, Cpt Miller and I are committed to this ride for as long as it lasts, but much will depend on sales and BFC bandwidth - small company, big dreams.  So one step at a time.  The fact we got green lit for a Module so quickly is a good sign, and we exceeded expectations as far as base game went - we were expecting CMA and got a lot closer to CMBS response, it put our baby squarely within the "inside club" of the modern era titles, hell we were a Charles S. Roberts nominee!  (Even told my mom...she totally did not get it.)

So beyond BAOR...we will see in the fullness of time.  And maybe Bil and I have got other ideas...maybe.

[laurent 22]

18 hours ago, The_Capt said:

 and the French were just a non-starter. 

Pleeaase just dot it (in 2025 or 2026 but do it pleeeaase)!

Edited February 3, 2023 by laurent 22

[The_Capt]

9 minutes ago, laurent 22 said:

Pleeaase just dot it (in 2025 or 2026 but do it pleeeaase)!

It wasn't personal.  It was the amount of work.  These are entirely different equipment fleets from a cold start.  I personally would love to see how the French Forces would have stacked up against the Soviets, in fact it is the logical aftermath from the Fulda Gap campaign.  But the level of effort it would have taken would have added years to release - and Bil H is not a young man.

[DesertFox]

1 hour ago, Combatintman said:

The best online sources I have found are the regimental journals to be honest and trawling through the National Archives is not something that is within my bandwidth.

Good to hear that. Archival research wouldn´t be what I would do either if not being payed fulltime for it.

[Sequoia]

IIRC , the French Army went through a major reorganization in the time period as well. So, if an expert on the French Army would commit to doing the research, perhaps that would be the only way it could happen.

Captain, are any of us young men anymore?