Combat Mission Cold War - British Army On the Rhine

[DesertFox]

Any chance you could squeeze in 1st Belgian Corps into the next module? It was BAORs southern neighbour in NORTHAG and holding the Kassel sector. AFAIK they directly cooperated with 1st Canadian Brigade in the 70-80s and also had some nice gear.

I Corps (Belgium) - Wikipedia

Edited February 9, 2023 by DesertFox

[Lethaface]

18 hours ago, Centurian52 said:

Thanks. Rereading Dr.Fusselpulli's comment, I really should have figured out from the context that the Panzerfaust Lanze and Panzerfaust 44 were one and the same.

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any consistent system. The Panzerfaust 30 and Panzerfaust 60 of WW2 were named for their effective ranges in meters (does anyone remember if the Panzerfaust 100 ever saw the light of day?). The Panzerfaust 44 was named for the size of its barrel in mm. And the Panzerfaust 3 does seem to be named for its succession number. I think it's a matter of tradition at this point that the successor to the Panzerfaust 3 will have to be named according to an entirely different naming convention from any of the previous Panzerfausts (they could go by date (ex: Panzerfaust 27 if it comes out in 2027) or perhaps use the American system and call it the M1 Panzerfaust).

Yes the PzFaust 100 is actually in CM (late war). There was also the PzFaust 150 but AFAIK that only saw very limited service if any.

[Allan Wotherspoon]

Take my money now please!

[Da_General]

Although I think exploring some of the earlier Cold War periods is interesting I do wish there would be a later time period included like 1987. 
 

Those later T-80 and T-72 models with all of the ERA bricks look so good. Not to mention Challenger and Leo if they decide to include Germany. 
 

I really don’t agree with the devs that they think it would start to resemble the more modern titles like Black Sea or Shock Force too much. Different time period by like 20+ years if they did late 1980’s. Different environment and unique units. Using that false argument you could say the same thing about a lot of the WW2 titles too.

[DesertFox]

4 hours ago, Da_General said:

Those later T-80 and T-72 models with all of the ERA bricks look so good. Not to mention Challenger and Leo if they decide to include Germany. 

Agreed, but it really will be some kind of seal clobbing. Create a test scen dated 1982, put an Abrams Coy against advancing T-80s or T-64s and you see what I mean. Beef that up with M901, if you like. They wipe the floor 4000m and beyond. Introducing smoothbore 120mm Leo 2s, 120mm Abrams and rifled 120mm Challengers into the mix doesn´t make it any easier for WarPac in the 80s-90s.

[Chudacabra]

This sounds incredibly fantastic, especially the inclusion of the Canadians. CMCW is probably my favourite CM game, so just great to see more content.

[Da_General]

I suppose that’s where the superior numbers come into play for the Soviets. They could afford the huge losses as long as they gained ground. 
 

Terrain objectives should always be worth much more to the Soviet side than unit objectives. That would be fairly easy to model in game.

[DesertFox]

18 minutes ago, Da_General said:

I suppose that’s where the superior numbers come into play for the Soviets. They could afford the huge losses as long as they gained ground. 
 

Terrain objectives should always be worth much more to the Soviet side than unit objectives. That would be fairly easy to model in game.

It is exactly that. Nobody really knows what would have been left of NATO defence forces once the 2nd echelon would have been rolling across the border. If lucky they would have been delayed 12-24 hours to reach the Weser.

Quote

The spearheads of the enemy attack could reach the Weser-Line after 9 to 14 hours if launched after only a short preparation phase, and after 15 to 25 hours after a more deliberate preparation. Elements of the Second Guards Tank Army or of the Twentieth Guards Army with a total of 11 divisions were projected as the second echelon.

from: https://jmss.org/article/download/58117/43734/158257

[Sequoia]

Yes and everyone expected Ukraine to have capitulated by May about a year ago.

[Lethaface]

Leo2 was in service though in the timeframe, so we should see that if there will be another module with Germany. Even NL saw first deliveries mid 1981.

[Halmbarte]

I'm really looking forward to these!

 H

[Halmbarte]

They were deploying the 'best tank in the world' to BAOR the same year the Sov was taking delivery of T64. I hadn't realized those two projects were that contemporary. 

When was BAOR fully equipped with Chieftain vice Centurion? Will we get some hot T64 on Centurion action?* 

H

*I don't see this coming out good for the Centurions and I have doubts about how the Chieftains are going to do. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Halmbarte

[Centurian52]

Since we are rolling the clock back to 1976 are we likely to see more Soviet frontline units in central Europe armed with AKMs instead of AK-74s? CMA has plenty of Soviet troops armed with AKMs as late as the early 80s, but I assume that's because the units in Afghanistan are lower priority units for new equipment than the units that would be pushing into West Germany. Obviously, as the name suggests, the AK-74 entered service in 1974, so some would have been produced and issued by 1976. But I suspect that 2 years might not be quite enough time to replace every old AKM in frontline units with a shiny new AK-74.

[Centurian52]

2 hours ago, Halmbarte said:

They were deploying the 'best tank in the world' to BAOR the same year the Sov was taking delivery of T64. I hadn't realized those two projects were that contemporary. 

When was BAOR fully equipped with Chieftain vice Centurion? Will we get some hot T64 on Centurion action?* 

H

*I don't see this coming out good for the Centurions and I have doubts about how the Chieftains are going to do. 

I couldn't find exact information on when the last Centurion in the BAOR was replaced by a Chieftain. But I'm confident we will get Centurions as well, same as we got M-48s with the Americans. It takes a long time to replace old equipment with new equipment. So much so that through most of history most armies have operated two or three tiers of equipment. You might have the newest and best equipment, which has only been produced for a few years, operating alongside older equipment that is slated for replacement, but which is still so numerous that it still forms the backbone of that equipment type, both operating alongside even older equipment which still hasn't been fully replaced yet (three tiers). Or if the newest equipment has been around for a decade or two it may have been produced in large enough quantities to form the backbone of the front line units, but the older equipment is still around in second line units, in storage, and perhaps in limited numbers in front line units (two tiers). The US only managed to get to a single tier with the Abrams because the thing has been in continuous service for 40 years without replacement (IIRC there were still M60s in reserve units as late as the 2000s).

For my part I expect the Centurion to perform pretty similarly to the M48A5s we've already got. It's a first generation MBT that has been upgraded with a second generation gun (the 105mm L7 (I would absolutely be interested in rewinding the clock far enough to get those 1st gen MBTs with their original 1st gen guns (Centurion with its old 84mm gun and the M48 with its old 90mm gun))). So that's 1st gen armor, optics, and horsepower, with 2nd gen firepower.

[DesertFox]

On 2/10/2023 at 6:55 PM, Sequoia said:

Yes and everyone expected Ukraine to have capitulated by May about a year ago.

ROFL! Sure. But Soviet Union of 1986 is a different beast from Russia of 2022.

[DesertFox]

On 2/10/2023 at 8:03 PM, Lethaface said:

Leo2 was in service though in the timeframe, so we should see that if there will be another module with Germany. Even NL saw first deliveries mid 1981.

First Leo IIs of first batch were delivered 10/1979 to Panzer Lehr Bataillon 93 in Munster.

[Halmbarte]

When did the last Conquerors leave BAOR? Wikipedia says '66 but...

H

[Aragorn2002]

10 hours ago, DesertFox said:

ROFL! Sure. But Soviet Union of 1986 is a different beast from Russia of 2022.

We'll never know for sure, will we?

[Aragorn2002]

On 2/10/2023 at 8:03 PM, Lethaface said:

Leo2 was in service though in the timeframe, so we should see that if there will be another module with Germany. Even NL saw first deliveries mid 1981.

I'm also looking forward to the Marder IFV. And it's predecessors the Schützenpanzer Lang HS30 and SPz 11-2 Kurz.

[chuckdyke]

Golden.

 

 

[DesertFox]

43 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

We'll never know for sure, will we?

Yes, and we can consider ourselves to be very lucky that we were never forced to find out the hard way.

Quote

 

Quote from: https://jmss.org/article/download/58117/43734/158257

The American general (Colin Powell) was convinced that his forces would manage to accomplish the mission of holding one of the key areas to NATO defense in Central Europe – but in the worst case, this would come at a high price. During an exercise, his Chief of Staff made the following remark on this situation: “(…) our last defensible position is the Vogelsberg range, and at that time it may be necessary to ask for release of nukes (…)

In his memoires, Colin Powell wrote that it had been this exercise in particular that had brought home to him how fast they would have reached the point of considering the use of nuclear weapons. For German military leaders, it was hard to foresee when the American allies would actually employ nuclear weapons in the Fulda Gap.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by DesertFox

[DesertFox]

33 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I'm also looking forward to the Marder IFV. And it's predecessors the Schützenpanzer Lang HS30 and SPz 11-2 Kurz.

Yes, must haves for West-Germany 1972-1982.

[Centurian52]

4 hours ago, DesertFox said:

Yes, must haves for West-Germany 1972-1982.

I appreciate your assumption that we'll get another timeline expansion back to 1972 when the German forces come out

A little extension to the timeline with every module would be pretty nice. For my part I would like to see some oscillation, with it expanding backwards every other module and forwards every other module. So for this first module we are going back to 1976, perhaps for the next one we can go forwards to 1985, and then back to 1972, then forwards to 1989, then back to the 1967. I am eager to see both earlier and later stuff. From 84mm armed Centurions, the Conqueror, and M48A3 to the M1A1, Leo2A4 and T80U. Although that many modules may be a bit optimistic.

Yes people are complaining that late 80s would be a repeat of CMSF. But for one thing I'm not sure that's the worst thing in the world (first, because it would be balanced by earlier content in which the Soviets have more of an edge (and you can always play as the Soviets in the later period if you think things are getting too easy (I know I enjoy taking a bit of a beating from time to time)), second because CMSF is my second favorite title after CMCW), and for another I'm not really sure it would be so one-sided. Sure the Americans have the M1A1 Abrams, which is a lot tougher than the M1 Abrams we got in 1982, but the Soviets have the T80U, and the Americans don't have the Javelin yet (still have to make do with the Dragon). And ultimately, just how CMSFy the late 80s would be is one of the things I'm very curious to find out.

[Aragorn2002]

31 minutes ago, Centurian52 said:

I appreciate your assumption that we'll get another timeline expansion back to 1972 when the German forces come out

A little extension to the timeline with every module would be pretty nice. For my part I would like to see some oscillation, with it expanding backwards every other module and forwards every other module. So for this first module we are going back to 1976, perhaps for the next one we can go forwards to 1985, and then back to 1972, then forwards to 1989, then back to the 1967. I am eager to see both earlier and later stuff. From 84mm armed Centurions, the Conqueror, and M48A3 to the M1A1, Leo2A4 and T80U. Although that many modules may be a bit optimistic.

Yes people are complaining that late 80s would be a repeat of CMSF. But for one thing I'm not sure that's the worst thing in the world (first, because it would be balanced by earlier content in which the Soviets have more of an edge (and you can always play as the Soviets in the later period if you think things are getting too easy (I know I enjoy taking a bit of a beating from time to time)), second because CMSF is my second favorite title after CMCW), and for another I'm not really sure it would be so one-sided. Sure the Americans have the M1A1 Abrams, which is a lot tougher than the M1 Abrams we got in 1982, but the Soviets have the T80U, and the Americans don't have the Javelin yet (still have to make do with the Dragon). And ultimately, just how CMSFy the late 80s would be is one of the things I'm very curious to find out.

Agreed. Late 80s would be great too.

[DesertFox]

30 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Agreed. Late 80s would be great too.

70s-89 would be my dream, however since it is not with the next module, that might be a few years away still.