Clearing forest full of infantry

[ShooterSix]

Hello,

I can blow away tanks like nobody's business, but get slaughtered and frustrated when having to clear forested areas, much more so than when I had too in fortress Italy or Normandy.

Just tonight for example, I had a small forested area surrounded with tanks and APCs. They pummeled several soldiers with their HE rounds and MG fire that they luckily managed to see. I sent two fresh squads, maybe 8-10 soldiers each, into the forest on "hunt" mode. I figured it would be an easy mop up. Nine seconds of weapon fire later, both squads are killed with hardly firing a shot, and not inflicting a single casualty. I raged quit, and viewed the map. Low and behold, all the havoc was created by three battered surviving Soviet sub machine gunners. Not light MGs mind you, but there standard sub machine gunners.

What's the trick?

Sure, I understand mortaring or shelling a forested area first is ideal, but not always possible, especially when playing as the Germans. Any pointers would be appreciated.

*please note I play in real time.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Suppression. You must advance behind a wall of machine gun fire. Area fire at or very near suspected positions before and during any movement. Expect to take a lot of time and burn a lot of ammunition, and probably still take some casualties even if done right. Armored vehicles on Target Light can work well for the cover fire since Soviet infantry is weak vs. armor.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

^^ and recon.

Never send a half squad anywhere a scout hasn't gone. Never send a squad anywhere a half squad hasn't gone. Never send a platoon anywhere a squad hasn't gone. Never send a vehicle anywhere infantry hasn't gone, and so on...

[Oddball_E8]

^^ and recon.

Never send a half squad anywhere a scout hasn't gone. Never send a squad anywhere a half squad hasn't gone. Never send a platoon anywhere a squad hasn't gone. Never send a vehicle anywhere infantry hasn't gone, and so on...

This!

Alwasy send recon ahead with as small a team as possible to minimise casualties (although, don't recon with just one guy, since if he dies, you still won't know where the enemy is ).

Also, don't move entire formations at the same time. Have some cover while the others hunt forward and then switch.

Slow and careful is the way to go.

[Pelican Pal]

Target light is your friend.

Walking, no matter how carefully, into a woods is asking to get shot up by someone laying in a bush.

Multiple squads bounding with numerous pauses and constant light fire to keep the enemy pinned. The key is that your bullets will reach slightly further than your slight. So whenever you walk up on someone they should be pinned already.

| -->Squad advance slightly past firing squad.

|-->Squad Firing

[Erwin]

As much as I hate taking massive casualties, I find that mass attacks with Russian squads broken into teams seems to work well (assuming the Germans are seriously outnumbered).

The Germans will certainly decimate some Russian teams, but the others are closing and firing and throwing grenades at short ranges. The Germans usually turn and run. (NB: My only experience is the large first mission in Russian Campaign.)

So, the lesson I am learning is that one should keep Russians in squads, but break them down into teams as we did with the Germans and WAllies.

The problem with moving Russians in squads, is that they will follow the first guy into a minefield and get decimated. Also, one good enemy ambush, and a large % of the squad can die. I am having much better success with more smaller teams - even though that is counter to the way Russians supposedly should be handled.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Bad things happen in forests. And in some areas of Russia there are lots of forests. Just be glad it is not winter....

[Macisle]

I'm loving the CMRT maps! One thing I'm encountering frequently in QBs are woodlines that are 4-8 action squares thick, but with light reverse slopes that allow the defender to fall back out of suppression fire zones. This, coupled with the v3 ability of defending units to more intelligently fall just out contact and then set up an ambush (over and over) makes taking such woodlines a real pickle (particulary for German infantry, IMO).

In the spirit of the Eastern Front, I've resorted to a tactic I've never used in CMBN: massed AFV overuns with assaulting infantry right behind them.

Basically, I'll put the AFV platoon HQ in AT overwatch and send the rest into the woods in a line using move/pause/target-briefly/repeat combos to shoot up the woods to take the pressure off the assaulting infantry (who are also using the M/P/TB/repeat command combos. I also allow for some units to have self-directed fire intervals to allow for flexibility.

Against a human player, this could be very risky in terms of AFV flank attacks while your own AFVs are busy, but against the AI, it's been working quite well.

-Just gotta' really be detailed and careful with your commands in the command phase (sorry RT players!). Also, it is, of course, a safer tactic for the Germans to use, since the Soviets don't have schrecks/PFs. You can't nickel and dime it, though. You need to really put muscle into it to "blitz" the defenders to keep them from regaining their composure.

Oh, and of course flamethrower tanks are a big plus for clearing woods (and fields, and...like...everything!)

[pnzrldr]

Quad 20mms. Russian infantry HATE those. Seriously, you must suppress them first. I appreciate you fired HE in first, but it just didn't get where it needed to go. Was one of the three battered survivors a leader? I have found Russian infantry overwhelmingly fragile when subjected to suppression w/o a leader nearby. I too have gotten mowed down by tough survivors, but I have also seen whole platoons break and run when effectively suppressed.

[stikkypixie]

I'm loving the CMRT maps! One thing I'm encountering frequently in QBs are woodlines that are 4-8 action squares thick, but with light reverse slopes that allow the defender to fall back out of suppression fire zones. This, coupled with the v3 ability of defending units to more intelligently fall just out contact and then set up an ambush (over and over) makes taking such woodlines a real pickle (particulary for German infantry, IMO).

In the spirit of the Eastern Front, I've resorted to a tactic I've never used in CMBN: massed AFV overuns with assaulting infantry right behind them.

Basically, I'll put the AFV platoon HQ in AT overwatch and send the rest into the woods in a line using move/pause/target-briefly/repeat combos to shoot up the woods to take the pressure off the assaulting infantry (who are also using the M/P/TB/repeat command combos. I also allow for some units to have self-directed fire intervals to allow for flexibility.

Against a human player, this could be very risky in terms of AFV flank attacks while your own AFVs are busy, but against the AI, it's been working quite well.

-Just gotta' really be detailed and careful with your commands in the command phase (sorry RT players!). Also, it is, of course, a safer tactic for the Germans to use, since the Soviets don't have schrecks/PFs. You can't nickel and dime it, though. You need to really put muscle into it to "blitz" the defenders to keep them from regaining their composure.

Oh, and of course flamethrower tanks are a big plus for clearing woods (and fields, and...like...everything!)

Quite right, though squad backing up from bad positions has been since CMSF

[Andrew H.]

I've been experimenting with a forest "battle drill"; it's still very much a work in progress, but it's working better than my previous attempts, at least. It's for the Sovs, but it should be adaptable.

Note: Use this drill when you know that there are nearby enemy units in the woods, not for general scouting.

Basically:

Put three squads on line, with an action spot between them. (Squad-Action spot- Squad -Action spot - Squad).

Every squad does area target light as far ahead as it can, for a full turn. If there are any tanks or armored cars nearby, have them do the same, into the same area, or at least into an area that may penetrate into the same area your other troops are shooting at. (Make sure that it is target light!). Depending on the shape of the woods, it may make sense for the armored vehicles to be outside the woods, on the flanks.

On the second turn, split on squad into two half squads. On the second turn, the two full squads and one of the half squad will continue with their area fire for the full turn. Give the other half squad a "target briefly"command, and extend it for 30 seconds. Then give that half squad a 30 sec pause order, followed by a "hunt" order, only extending for about 2 action spaces. (1 if you know that the enemy is really really close).

On the third turn, the advanced half squad area fires and his remaining half squad joins him.

Assuming you have no new sound contacts or other enemy contact, a half squad from each of the other squads can advance on line with the full squad, and the remaining half squads will join the next turn. Advance your armor if necessary.

Whenever you get a new contact, including a sound contact, area fire light on it for a full turn. Armor can use regular target or target briefly if your troops are not too close. (Note: I really like SU 76's for this role. (I really like them for infantry support in general, actually). Be careful with ISU 152's - I've had casualties from hits more than 100 meters away).

Also - if you are buying your own troops, think about getting a T-34/76: it carries 70 HE shells, which often turns out to be more useful than the 35? or so carried by the /85.

[Erwin]

Maybe for a very limited amount of woods and you won't run out of ammo or time. Not very doable when you have a large map with a lot of woods. One still needs to send suicidal recon teams.

[Kommissar]

I hear you man. I've played a lot of the scenarios as Germans, and nothing gives me more grief than clearing forests full of SMGers. Even three or four can devastate a whole platoon. There's often no way to call arty on them if they're deep in the forest, and no way to get other supports.

The other comments are helpful. I've found that target light is invaluable for mopping up. It keeps the enemy suppressed, and often gets them to break and run at which point your other squads should be able to pick them off. Also, be patient. You want the Soviets to be the ones walking into your hidden troops who open with LMGs.

Finally, sometimes you can get tanks in through the forest further than you think. In the forest clearing scenario for the Germans (Augustow Boil or something like that), you can often get a tank several tiles into the forest. It's a little risky, but Soviet's have very little infantry AT aside from grenades, so as long you has infantry nearby, you're generally safe.

[JasonC]

If your tanks and heavy stuff are keeping everyone off the actual treeline, why go into the woods at all? The Russians inside are powerless unless you step on them. Don't step on them.

Simple.

[Chainsaw]

One still needs to send suicidal recon teams.

And that is where the sniper team in the soviet infantry platoons comes in handy

[c3k]

LOL. To prove a thesis, Bil and I are playing a deep woods mano a mano submachinegun platoon battle.

He's soooo weak. He waited. Bah. I advanced! Okay, I told my men to advance!

Anyone moving dies. Hopefully you've got some eyes behind the scout team. They'll at least see the tracers or maybe a spot icon. Then you've got to pour fire on that area while ANOTHER team moves up to engage with cold steel! Of course, they'll advance just a wee bit more than the scouts did, so the next set of guys will cut them down. Meanwhile, the first set of enemy has spent that turn running away, like the cowards they are, to hide behind their friends, so no one is where you spotted them.

That is how it is done. You must lay a carpet of your men's bodies across the forest floor, then you may freely walk the woods, as is your divine right.

Ken

[sburke]

My method of clearing woods is to look around, spot Ken's guys and tell them to go first. We'll be right behind you!

[Skwabie]

Somehow reminds me of Vietnam... maybe it won't be that much enjoyable if BFC venture into that:eek:

[Baneman]

...

Anyone moving dies. Hopefully you've got some eyes behind the scout team. They'll at least see the tracers or maybe a spot icon. ...

Lies !

In a current PBEM, my men waited, motionless, like ...stones or panthers or wolves or summat. They knew the enemy was coming and they were ready to make them pay.

And then ... they died to invisible ( and presumably, silent ) enemy.

So it can be done. Just not by me .. or you !

[permanent666]

What about flamethrowers? How many AS can they penetrate the woods. Are flames blocked by trees the same way as bullets?

[YankeeDog]

What about flamethrowers? How many AS can they penetrate the woods. Are flames blocked by trees the same way as bullets?

Manpack flamethrowers have very short range. For example, The Russian ones only reach ~32m. So usually, the FT team is going to get spotted and shot before it gets close enough to an actively resisting enemy to do any useful work. Occasionally, you might get lucky, but I wouldn't plan on it as a tactic.

Vehicle flamethrowers are a different matter. But if the woods are thin enough to allow vehicle passage and a target line out to ~100m, and you have any vehicle with either a FT or decent HE, you really don't have a problem.

JasonC has is right: Don't clear the depths of heavy woods unless you absolutely have to, and if you have to, only clear as much as you absolutely need to in order to accomplish your objective. Infantry deep inside woods is very difficult to root out, but they also can't project fire power beyond the woods unless they move up to the edge, in which case you can bring ranged firepower to bear upon them.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In a current PBEM, my men waited, motionless, like ...stones or panthers or wolves or summat. They knew the enemy was coming and they were ready to make them pay.

And then ... they died to invisible ( and presumably, silent ) enemy.

So it can be done. Just not by me .. or you !

That reminds me. I still own you a QB on the Huzzar! map. After the 3.0 upgrade is out I will hunt you down

[Kommissar]

If your tanks and heavy stuff are keeping everyone off the actual treeline, why go into the woods at all? The Russians inside are powerless unless you step on them. Don't step on them.

Simple.

I generally agree with this statement, but the Augostow Plague Boil scenario is essentially a "clear the forest of Soviets" where you derive most of your points from casualties inflicted on the other side. The Worborlin Bridgehead scenario also has an objective that is in thick woods, so you've got to roll up your sleeves.

[Baneman]

That reminds me. I still own you a QB on the Huzzar! map. After the 3.0 upgrade is out I will hunt you down

Kewl, I'm still up for that.

[JasonC]

Kommissar - want to inflict casualties on infantry in deep woods?

First drive them off the tree line with ranged fire.

Then drop artillery on their heads.

Keep all the edges covered, and shoot anyone who leaves.

Drop more artillery on their heads.

Drop some more artillery on their heads.

Do this all day. Seven days a week. Never go step on them.

What are they going to do, bleed on you?