Tea Time. Beta AAR discussion threat. Not for Bill or Elvis ;-)

[Battlefront.com]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PaK_36

Michael

As I was typing that I knew, somewhere in my overt tired mind, that I was making a mistake Obviously Pak38 is what I meant

As for spalling... it is a factor of kinetic energy vs. the armor. The Soviet armor is so thick on these beasts that spalling from a Pak38 is going to be a pretty unlikely event. Think of it this way... what are the chances of having spalling happen from small arms fire? None. Why? Because the kinetic energy of the bullets are absorbed by the armor's mass. I suspect the Pak38's rounds against something like an ISU-122 would be highly unlikely.

Of course when the game is out people can test this out for sure

Steve

[Dadekster]

I think TRP's would have been an excellent pickup for this battle tbh. Bill from everything I have seen is a calculating opponent and you can mostly count on him going where he thinks his odds of going are going to be the best for success. This narrows down his avenues of approach which makes placing TRP's a bit less of a gamble. Of course everything in a battle like this is rife of shoulda, coulda and woulda. I cringe every time I see screenies of Elvis guys running around in Bill's thread but I applaud Elvis for his initiative in a defensive position. I generally don't have the moxie to do stuff like that.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think Elvis has psyched himself out. He's more jittery than a jitterbug and seems convinced that Bil's forces are going to materialize in his midst at any moment. Why would staying in place be suicide?

I've got a bad feeling about every plan against Bil. To remain in place is suicide against Bil. To pull back accomplishes nothing but delaying what happens by staying in place a few turn.

[Vinnart]

I think Elvis has psyched himself out. He's more jittery than a jitterbug and seems convinced that Bil's forces are going to materialize in his midst at any moment. Why would staying in place be suicide?

Agree. The more he keeps moving around, the more he will keep feeding an already proven failed strategy that keeps losing a few here, and a few there. It should be the other way around. He should set up ambushes, and have the PATIENCE to stay put. He has not sprung one ambush because he keeps moving around trying to hunt Bil in the woods, which hasn’t proven successful. Constantly moving around, loses the element of surprise.

Elvis will lose more, and more men with each movement to contact, which he cannot win being out gunned. The best strategy for this terrain is what I said earlier. Ambush, fall back, reset ambush, and repeat. Hit, and run as long as he can. There is no better terrain than woods for this tactic. Whenever Uncle Sun Tzu’s advice is not taken the outcome is predictable. Elvis will lose the woods war with the strategy he is using. There is a time to be aggressive, and a time to be patient. Patience is needed in this case.

[Michael Emrys]

As I was typing that I knew, somewhere in my overt tired mind, that I was making a mistake Obviously Pak38 is what I meant

I know. I noted that it was late where you are when you wrote that and probably at the end of a long day, so a perfectly understandable mistake. But the opportunity to give you a zinger was just too good to pass up. Glad you accepted it in the spirit with which it was offered. Maybe it will be your turn next time.

Michael

[MikeyD]

Pak36® is respectable enough. And there would have be some... irony, I suppose, in a Russian-produced gun being turned on its original owners. Steve should have simply claimed to have forgot the ®.

[Skwabie]

I got a question... I thought the eastern front mostly consists of the russian open steppe. Why so many trees on this map:confused: Or is it simply the preference of the involved parties?

[Fizou]

I got a question... I thought the eastern front mostly consists of the russian open steppe. Why so many trees on this map:confused: Or is it simply the preference of the involved parties?

Russia (or the Soviet Union) is huge.. you will find most types of terrain there. There is a lot of steppe but there is also a lot of woodland. Bellarussia where Bagration took place has a lot of woodland and marshes.

[Skwabie]

Bellarussia where Bagration took place has a lot of woodland and marshes.

Thanks Fizou! But bummer:(

[Combatintman]

Very similar difficult terrain in the Baltic States too - I had a look around there last night and it confirms that this map is pretty spot on as an example of much of the ground that was fought over.

[George MC]

You can see the same place as it looked in 2004 at the following link in google earth 54°19'12.97" N 28°22'10.37" E

Mind it was a wee bit different in 1944. I used the Soviet map 1:50 000 (mapped in 1933 and used by the Germans) RKKA050_N-35-69-B_By`tcha_1938_greif to create the map, part of which was used for this QB with Bil and Elvis.

[Battlefront.com]

The Soviets and later Russians converted huge portions of Belarus into farmland since WW2 ended. As someone who loves the original ecology of Belarus, except for mosquitoes, I find it depressing. Land use conversion taken to an extreme never ends well.

Anyway, when you look in the are north and west of Kiev today you see a lot of massive farms. Look at the same area in WW2 and you see forest, bogs, and small villages. The scale of change is enormous.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

BTW, thanks go to Terkin for posting information about some Soviet AFVs having ample supplies of SMG ammo for their tank riders. I confirmed with Charles that Acquiring is possible from an enclosed AFV. We know what the ISU-122/152 had for ammo (1400) and are looking for help identifying other AFVs that might have had ammo at the ready and how much.

Thanks!

Steve

[Baneman]

... I confirmed with Charles that Acquiring is possible from an enclosed AFV....

You do realise that you're opening up a can of worms here that we ( well, certainly I ) are going to jump on !

Will this apply to all AFV's ( other nations included ) and will you have to be able to board aka "ride on" the AFV to do it ?

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

Wonderful. Glad to hear the good news.

[Battlefront.com]

Actually, can of worms closed. I was reminded that the ISU-122 and ISU-152 don't have coax or hull MGs. The SMGs, and their ammo, were most likely for local defense. A lesson learned from the Ferdinand and various other German Assault Guns. While technically they could share ammo with the tank riders, it is doubtful they would have given away very much because they probably were instructed to keep it for themselves.

So move along... nothing to see here

Steve

[Baneman]

Oh very well done. You win this round of Whack-a-Mole

... but ... Charles did say ....... so in other cases .....

[Collingwood]

The Lord Giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

[Battlefront.com]

Back on topic...

Elvis' plan to disrupt/confuse Bil's probes is doing some good. Bil hasn't fallen for anything in particular, but it has caused him to trip up a bit and taken a few losses that are significant (Squad Leader and LMG Team). More importantly Elvis has some pretty good information about where Bil is and where he's intending on going.

Hmmm...

Well, it's still a risky strategy and it's too early to say if it will succeed or fail. Though I do have to side with Elvis' overall thinking that the last thing you want to do against Bil is let Bil be in charge of everything. That is pretty much a sure way to get your arse handed to you.

Steve

[sburke]

Let's confuse him and run away further.

[c3k]

I like the duality regarding Elvis' spotting rounds. Elvis thinks they're worthless where they're landing: Bil has lost several troops to them.

Sweet.

[Michael Emrys]

I like the duality regarding Elvis' spotting rounds. Elvis thinks they're worthless where they're landing: Bil has lost several troops to them.

Sweet.

Yeah, that is kind of ironic. Like the gods of war stepping in to balance the scales.

Michael

[Vinnart]

I don’t think Elvis picked a good spot to set up on the edge. He could very easily get pinned there, and if he has to retreat he must cross open ground. Also, the woods are not deep there which means Bil can get arty rounds in there with better LOS where he cannot in deeper woods. I would have set up on the deep woods to the rear of that position set back as far as possible to cover the open ground with a cover arc about 25m into the open. That spot it is not the most optimal, and getting there late means Bil may have seen him moving in which makes the whole surprise advantage mute.

The deep, dense woods on that edge could be sweet terrain for hit, and run tactics.

I am assuming that one is vulnerable to one’s own mines. Is this the case?

[womble]

I am assuming that one is vulnerable to one’s own mines. Is this the case?

Yes. Mines are equal opportunity wounders, maimers and killers.

[Migo441]

This is what I was worried about with Elvis positioning his armor so far back. Bil has a partial spot as soon as they begin moving which gives him >= 2 turns to react before any engagement.

One thing (pure conjecture) which might work for Elvis is if the Hetzers engage the ISU-122 and Bil responds by moving T-34s to hit their flank... Right into the waiting sights of the Panther. But Bil is not one to rush.

I know the Hetzers are in big trouble if a 122mm shell finds its mark. Question for the gunnery grogs: how does the matchup of the 7.5 cm Pak 39 (L/48) against the ISU-122 shake out?

With the ISU-122's frontal armor of 90mm at 60 degrees, it looks like the Pzgr.39 will be ineffective at ranges above 500m. Is that right? It's tough to read the map correctly from the screen shots, but I think the ISU-122 could potentially swing wide around KT3 and get eyes on the edge of Objective Blue at ranges of greater than 500m.

Not sure about what ammo types the Hetzers and Panther have?