Tea Time. Beta AAR discussion threat. Not for Bill or Elvis ;-)

[Vanir Ausf B]

Elvis knows about the Russians in KT4, but he doesn't seem to know about the ones on his far left in KT2 (soon to be in KT5).

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1501338&postcount=401

[sburke]

I think you are misinterpreting Bil's early efforts. Bil's main effort is headed up (his) extreme right. As far as I can tell, Elvis hasn't spotted this at all yet. The forces Elvis has spotted are headed up Bil's Center-Right, and are part of a "show" by Bil -- Bil wants Elvis to see these units and think the main effort is coming up that way...

Looks like Bil is shooting for a wide right hook. Could be a big payoff if he achieves it, but he risks getting bogged down in the woods and running out of time.

Elvis's unit is positioned on Bil's far right and perfectly located if not spotted and eliminated to see Bil's axis blue 2 force which is currently starting to cross in front of it. He is in KT 5 - Bil's axis yellow. It is highly likely Bil will not even spot him until he actually begins his push through KT 5. Hopefully Elvis puts that team on a short covered arc as their intel role is so much more valuable than anything they could achieve by firing.

Sorry for repeat posting of their images, but it helps to see them together and not bouncing between threads.

Elvis's position

These are the guys that spotted it.

They are about 640m away. I realized when posting this that it looks like I might be targeting this. I am not. I am just showing LOs and distance.

Bils' Movement plan

Bil's current position

Note the guy in the inset box. Elvis's team is to the right of the bridge.

Well, a few enemy teams, including one HQ team break from the wood line and head across the open space leading to Obj. Blau... what spurred that movement, and why through the open? Note that I now have a full squad in KT4 heading toward the enemy teams.

Notice that I have started to cross from KT2 to KT4... note the squad at the edge of KT2 facing KT5.. they will stay in this position for several turns yet to allow the movement toward Blau to develop.

And no Michael, not wheaties. You must eat your Ovaltine and listen on the radio for the secret message.

[Vanir Ausf B]

That's a good summation, sburke, but IIRC Bil's main attack vector is Yellow. Blue 1 and Blue 2 are probes/demonstrations meant to draw Elvis's forces away from Yellow (although that could change).

[MikeyD]

Forget about what Elvis 'is' doing, does anyone have suggestions on what he 'should' be doing? That map is 'infiltration central'. I'm not sure how I could go about defending it. Except perhaps to avoid battle entirely, allow Bil to take the objectives (on relatively open ground) then counterattack on my own terms and throw him back. But that's assuming that Bil is on a mission to seize the objectives. If his goal is to hunt Elvis down and kill him then avoiding and retreating would only put him into a box. And once again, the defender has little room behind him to maneuver.

[sburke]

That's a good summation, sburke, but IIRC Bil's main attack vector is Yellow. Blue 1 and Blue 2 are probes/demonstrations meant to draw Elvis's forces away from Yellow (although that could change).

True, the next few turns could determine his success at that. If he spots and eliminates this unit soon I think what intel Elvis has acquired will feed into Bil's plan. If he does not Elvis might sniff out the real plan. I love when a single unit like this can have such a huge potential influence. This is what makes HTH so damn much fun.

Forget about what Elvis 'is' doing, does anyone have suggestions on what he 'should' be doing? That map is 'infiltration central'. I'm not sure how I could go about defending it. Except perhaps to avoid battle entirely, allow Bil to take the objectives (on relatively open ground) then counterattack on my own terms and throw him back. But that's assuming that Bil is on a mission to seize the objectives. If his goal is to hunt Elvis down and kill him then avoiding and retreating would only put him into a box. And once again, the defender has little room behind him to maneuver.

Oh that's simple *cue Ken* Attack!!!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Forget about what Elvis 'is' doing, does anyone have suggestions on what he 'should' be doing? That map is 'infiltration central'. I'm not sure how I could go about defending it.

I have said from the beginning that Elvis should set up a series of infantry ambushes in the sections of woods bordering the southern edge of the town (Bil has not assigned KT numbers to them) and in KT5. The difficulty Elvis has had in the encounters so far have less to do with PPSh-41s than with his too-aggressive probing on defense, which allowed his scouts to get ambushed by the attackers.

It's not too late for him to do this, but he seems intent on conducting a highly mobile/counter-attacking defense, which will be entertaining to watch but doomed to failure.

[Battlefront.com]

I agree that since Elvis couldn't overwatch the river, there wasn't much point in pushing too far into the forests.

Without looking at the map in detail fist hand...

I think I would have tried for defending the closer forest areas and hoped to catch Bil's guys in the crossing of the open ground, delay them once they crossed, then fall back to OBJ Blau and plaster the woods with whatever artillery I had.

Armor would hang out somewhere behind OBJ Blau. After pulling infantry out of the woods through Blau I would position them for a forward defense of OBJ Rot. In other words, I'd not try to hold Blau, only make it cost him something to take it.

For OBJ Gelb I'd keep it about the same as what Elvis did. Basically boobytrap it and have enough force to keep him occupied. But I probably would have done it on the edge where Bil has to move out into the open. I wouldn't worry too much about my internal flank, guessing that Bil would be more concerned about pushing on into Blau or between Blau and Gelb, not investing in a forest battle. And if he did I'd be a game bastage and try to withdraw my covering force along the map edge and into Gelb.

Steve

[MikeyD]

Infantry ambushes along the gaps in the woods sound like a great opportunity for Bil to show us OT-34 in action. We need a defensive line OT-34 (and ISU) would have difficulty accessing. Hmm... its a conundrum.

[John Kettler]

I find the logic behind preserving recon eyeballs vs trying to shoot from long range at Bil's guys irrefutable. This is precisely the same reasoning behind not jamming certain command nets despite the capability to do so. The value of listening in can far exceed the value of jamming. Elvis needs battlefield awareness far more than that tiny firepower increment the recon team can provide.

MikeyD,

The only account of that particularly devastating hit I've ever read was the front end of a review in fine Scale Modeler of a Dragon Models ISU-122. I've yet to see it anywhere else since (definitely not in the English material on Valera's site). I remember reading that opening paragraph in a jaw-dropped mixture of astonishment and horror. While I knew the gun could readily kill a Panther from the front, I had no idea it could do what you describe.

sburke,

You don't eat Ovaltine, you drink it.

Steve,

Those are indeed very nice looking woodline transitions.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Terkin]

One minor advantage Elvis has involves those Russian PPSh, ironically enough. If he can keep from getting killed for any length of time those tank riders are liable to rapidly exhaust their ammo supply. And there's no submachinegun ammo to acquire back at the tank. I may be grossly misinterpreting tank riders but they seem to be one trick ponies. Hop off the tank and wipe out all the suppressed enemy troops at close range. If the enemy isn't wiped out, or isn't suppressed, or isn't at close range the tank riders are basically caught with their pants down.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with newer WW2 games of CM series (last game I've played was CMSF).

Do tanks or SPG in game normally have additional ammo for small arms like IFVs in CMSF? Or can one find additional ammunition only with ammo dumps?

I'm asking this because if I understand it correctly, at least ISU-122 and ISU-152 had 21 disc for PPSh and F-1 grenades on board.

Note number 10 on this pic - that is what I'm talking about. this could be some help for tank riders, because I remember how fast SMG teams burnt through their ammo back in CMBB days

[Broadsword56]

If the Soviet AFVs did really carry all those submachinegun ammo discs as the illustration shows, then tank riders in passenger status ought to be able to "acquire" ammo from the tank (but only if it's unbuttoned). I can see how there would be no way to resupply the tank riders under fire. But in an unbuttoned AFV the crew could have tossed additional ammo out to the riders, nyet?

[Battlefront.com]

Those drums are for the onboard MGs. Soviet tanks used DT and DTM, which were modified versions of the DP and DPM LMG used by infantry.

Steve

[Terkin]

Sorry, but no, they are not.

These were PPSh magazines, as it is written on the pic in Russian: "magazines for PPSh submachine gun".

A quote from Wiki:

The crew were given two PPSh submachine guns with 1491 rounds and 20 F-1 grenades for short range self-defence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU-152#Design

Also, this pic is showing interior of ISU-152, that didn't have DP or DT machinegun. later model had DShK mounted outside.

A quote from here: http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/isu152/1/

С октября 1944 г. на вращающемся погоне основания командирского люка стала устанавливаться зенитная турель с 12.7-мм пулеметом ДШК и коллиматорным прицелом К8-Т. Боекомплект к пулемету составлял 250 патронов. Кроме того, в боевом отделении укладывались два 7.62-мм пистолета-пулемета ППШ (ППС) с боекомплектом 1491 патрон (21 диск) и 20 ручных гранат Ф-1.

Starting from October 1944 they started mounting AA turrets with 12.7mm DShk with collimator scope K8-T on top of commander's cupolas. It had ammo of 250. Moreover, there were two 7.62mm smgs PPSh (PPS) with ammo of 1491 bullets (21 disc) and 20 F-1 hand-grenades in the fighting compartment.

[John Kettler]

Terkin,

Welcome aboard!

You might think the ISU-122 is a good mobile ammo point, but what you see there is specifically intended for and assigned to provide local defense for the AFV when laagered at night or otherwise exposed to infantry attack.

Further, that ammo is also used for munitioning dismounted reconnaissance, as seen in HSU Loza's Fighting For The Soviet Motherland, where he and his driver disembark from the Lend Lease Matilda he commands to go forward and check out a suspicious cabin. He takes the PPSh-41, additional ammo and F-1 grenades, and is assisted by the driver, who's armed with the dismounted coax MG.

The tankodesantniki have what they have on their persons, and that's it. To date, I've read nothing to contradict this view. Moreover, even during the Cold War, a Russian Motorized Rifle infantryman would've gone into battle with one 30 round mag in his AK-47s and three more in his canvas carrier. That's it, and this is straight out of the Defense Intelligence Agency publication The Soviet Motorized Rifle Company (U).

Properly speaking, tankodesantniki and their rides are not the ones who break the enemy defense. Rather, they form the exploitation force launched after the breakthrough. Their job is to completely unhinge what's left of the defense by wrecking the rear, cutting supply lines, seizing key terrain and critical points such as bridges, paving the way for the general advance to follow. Much of the time, they will actively avoid a fight, there being far more utility in continuing to drive onward and let the Rifle formations deal with the bypassed enemy positions when they arrive. An enemy against the ropes or down must be given no chance to recover, and that's best achieved by evisceration from within.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

Sorry, but no, they are not.

These were PPSh magazines, as it is written on the pic in Russian: "magazines for PPSh submachine gun".

A quote from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU-152#Design

Also, this pic is showing interior of ISU-152, that didn't have DP or DT machinegun. later model had DShK mounted outside.

A quote from here: http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/isu152/1/

Thanks for the translation! I always thought of them as being ammo for the crew, but 1400 rounds? If an AFV crew needs that much small ammo they should be infantry instead

I will see what we can do to allow infantry to Acquire ammo, but I am not sure the game is coded to allow this to happen. Normally the infantry must be "inside" the vehicle, not riding on top.

Steve

[Erwin]

The ability of inf to acquire ammo from tanks etc would be useful in other CM games as well. I definitely recall ammo being available in certain CMSF vehicles and it being impossible for anyone other than its crew to mount. Can't remember if we have the same in CMBN or CMFI.

[MikeyD]

That's very interesting! News news on the SU/ISU front. The illustration shows 22 drums. I do wonder if it was meant as an ammo cashe for the accompanying tank riders. I understand individual tankers and tank infantry ate together, slept together, were considered a single unit.

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

I will see what we can do to allow infantry to Acquire ammo, but I am not sure the game is coded to allow this to happen. Normally the infantry must be "inside" the vehicle, not riding on top.

Great to see this close community management. But, this leads me to a question. If the infantry must be inside the vehicle to take ammonition, how can they use this new stationary ammocrates, this small depots?

Is it possible to go "inside"?

[YankeeDog]

Great to see this close community management. But, this leads me to a question. If the infantry must be inside the vehicle to take ammonition, how can they use this new stationary ammocrates, this small depots?

Is it possible to go "inside"?

You just park your unit on the action spot and use the Acquire command. Easy Peasy.

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

In this case, it can´t be difficult to use this technique also to tankriders and their vehicles. Maybe make a query if the tanks is unbuttoned or not. But I see this all would needs some time. So, if it dosn´t fit in the final game, a soon patch could fix it.

[Sequoia]

In this case, it can´t be difficult to use this technique also to tankriders and their vehicles. Maybe make a query if the tanks is unbuttoned or not. But I see this all would needs some time. So, if it dosn´t fit in the final game, a soon patch could fix it.

One should never assume what is easy or not to code unless one is familiar with the code.

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

True...

[Dadekster]

Speaking of lugging around extra ammo will we see the 152's carrying extra rounds on the rear deck by chance? I would think that would make for an interesting dilemma for people playing when picking their forces maybe?

[John Kettler]

Here's the link to the ISU-122 and ISU-152 article on Battlefield.ru (Valera Potapov's, contributor to CMBB, site) In it, it clearly states "the crew is armed with either PPS or PPSh-41 sub-machine guns.."

http://english.battlefield.ru/jsu-122-jsu-152.html

The standard crew is 5 men (sometimes women; at least one known and combat successful husband and wife team on an ISU-122 crew). Let's run the numbers. Figuring one drum in the gun and a spare for each man, that leaves 11 in the rack, enough for two additional reloads all around and a singleton as well. We all know how little time it takes to empty a drum at very high ROF, so it makes sense, given the capacious nature of the beasts, to carry what seems like a lot of ammo. I'm perfectly prepared to be proven wrong, but for now, I'm sticking to my original statement.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

...will we see the 152's carrying extra rounds on the rear deck by chance?

This topic has peaked Steve's interest but its anyone's guess if the code supports acquireables on tanks. I suspect it'll either be very easy or absolutely impossible - nothing in between. We're at the mercy of Charles on this.