Terkin Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Actually, can of worms closed. I was reminded that the ISU-122 and ISU-152 don't have coax or hull MGs. The SMGs, and their ammo, were most likely for local defense. A lesson learned from the Ferdinand and various other German Assault Guns. While technically they could share ammo with the tank riders, it is doubtful they would have given away very much because they probably were instructed to keep it for themselves. So move along... nothing to see here Steve Hahah, that made me laugh. Late versions of ISU-152 did have DShK mounted on them, but this information could be useful for you guys when you will be making Push to Berlin module. EDIT Ah, you're right! I had thought the frontal armor was just 75mm at 60 but that turned out to be the earlier SU-152 (also in the game). But isn't the battle compartment front armour ~90mm at 30 degrees? That's a small slope, shouldn't 75mm be able to penetrate that at such distance? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 With the ISU-122's frontal armor of 90mm at 60 degrees... Ah, you're right! I had thought the frontal armor was just 75mm at 60 but that turned out to be the earlier SU-152 (also in the game). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruhntasaur Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Not sure about what ammo types the Hetzers and Panther have? If we're talking about armor piercing rounds, it's APCBC PzGr 39's almost exclusively; Tungsten shortages forced the Germans to stop production of all the PzGr 40 types already during '43, while keeping any meaningful supplies only for Pak 36 and Pak 40 guns. By 1944, all the APCR round stocks would've been expended already. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Hahah, that made me laugh. Late versions of ISU-152 did have DShK mounted on them, but this information could be useful for you guys when you will be making Push to Berlin module. Yes, definitely! I also see that after the war they tried mounting a coax MG, but it was abandoned as the vehicle was no longer kept in service. Charles confirmed that an unbuttoned crew can use SMGs for close defense! Cool Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizou Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Charles confirmed that an unbuttoned crew can use SMGs for close defense! Cool Steve Cool indeed 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Fusselpulli Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Woar? That is possible? Really cool. Will this be also a feature to other tanks? On the other hand, what will they do, if someone is shooting the tank? Sometimes I see the comander close the hatch if the tank is shooten, often to slow, so that he get killed, but sometimes its just in time. And I am alwasy relieved about to see him safe in his monster of steal. But if they now can return fire, what will they do? Duck and cover, or order the driver to drive closer so the comander can hit them with his sword? They can´t do both... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I think the main relevance would be as a counter to handheld AT ambushes (especially Panzerfaust and AT grenades) in close terrain. E.g. unbuttoned commander happens to spot a panzerfaust team waiting in ambush and sprays them with SMG fire while the turret turns to engage. I don't think it would be necessary or even desirable to change buttoning behavior. Basically an unsuppressed TC would have a chance to take a quick shot at a target at close range, especially one that is within the close assault "penalty" zone where the tank's weapons have delayed engagement (of course this penalty would need to not apply to the commander). That said, just because something is possible doesn't mean it is also practicle to implement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Fusselpulli Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I think the main relevance would be as a counter to handheld AT ambushes (especially Panzerfaust and AT grenades) in close terrain. E.g. unbuttoned commander happens to spot a panzerfaust team waiting in ambush and sprays them with SMG fire while the turret turns to engage. Uh, that sounds difficult to my ears, exspecially if the tank commander don´t has a brain and only some TacAI-script routines to helps him on this decision... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 E.g. unbuttoned commander happens to spot a panzerfaust team waiting in ambush and sprays them with SMG fire while the turret turns to engage. That brings up a question: did tank commanders typically carry an SMG on their person while in the tank? If not (and I really don't know) then there should be some delay. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Does anyone recall seeing ATRs among Bil's forces? Elvis is worried about ISU-122 clobbering his Hetzer but I suspect ATR can turn that vehicle's tissue-paper side armor into Swiss cheese. Tank riders wouldn't carry them but Bil's got more than tank riders on the map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I don't recall Bil mentioning ATRs. It looks like Bil is going to march around Elvis's units defending the east farm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 That brings up a question: did tank commanders typically carry an SMG on their person while in the tank? If not (and I really don't know) then there should be some delay. Be prepared. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 ... Does anyone recall seeing ATRs among Bil's forces? Elvis is worried about ISU-122 clobbering his Hetzer but I suspect ATR can turn that vehicle's tissue-paper side armor into Swiss cheese. Tank riders wouldn't carry them but Bil's got more than tank riders on the map. Here is his answer two a question of mine in the soviet AAR thread... Why did you choose to remove ALL antitank rifles squads from the two rifle companys ? My thinking...If Elvis decides to place some armoured cars with 20mm guns in the village to oppose your infantry from advancing north into the village from the large wooded area to the south (yellow 1 and 2)...I think thoose sneaky AT-assets would come in very handy... By looking at the map he ought to be able to protect those armoured cars from flanking shots by hiding them besides some of the buildings (more or less forcing you to deal with them from the front)... Well I figured I had enough AT support.. and I would rather have the HMGs than the AT rifles... I know what use the HMGs will be, the AT rifles could end up being wasted points. I am not worried about whether there might be Arm cars or not somewhere... I'll sniff them out if they are there and deal with them then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 akd, That's going to be a neat trick, considering the ISUs have no turrets. As for the TC hosing a Panzerfaust team, he's not wearing the SMG. It's stowed inside the fighting compartment, clamped in place. It's going to take a bit of time to recognize the threat, get the SMG and hope to disrupt the attack which will likely already be in progress. (Edit) My post went up before I saw your #212. That pic's a case study on how filthy tanks get. It may be the lighting and the decidedly odd viewing angle, but to me, the presumptive PPSh-41 doesn't look like a real weapon. Having the weapon on the turret or fighting compartment roof is all well and good while stopped, but how long is that approach going to work when the AFV's oscillating in multiple directions when moving across any kind of remotely discontinuous terrain? Those men look anxious, and my guess, judging from the elevation and pointing of their heads, is that they fear air attack. MikeyD, Not that I recall. I do agree that an ATR would punch lots of small holes in the side of the Hetzer, having lost one of mine to a .50 cal. MG equipped jeep operating a la Rat Patrol back in CMBO. The 14.5 mm cartridge is much more potent than a .50 BMG, so much so that the caliber was the basis for the KPVT on BTRs (60,70,80) past the end of the Cold War. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Yes, Elvis finally set up an ambush, but in the worst spot especially now that Bil is just going around it. When Bil circles his assault force around while keeping his defense pinning force in place all Elvis’s troops in that little patch he decided to go will be encircled, and cut off. He also got caught being spotted moving in to the position so essential there is no more ambush. Bad spot, with bad retreat options across open ground. I’ve been preaching patience, but hopefully he will see that spot is not good and move from there soon. Perhaps he will see the woods behind that patch are much better. There is where he should have gone in the first place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chops Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Wow!, Oberfeldwebel Schultz and his harassing fire support mission sprint, actually had some success. Looks like he caused a couple of Soviet casualties, and confused the Soviet Commander. Where is that hero, Shultz located now? I really thought it was going to turn out to be a run to the river Styx for Ol' Shultz. Elvis has apparently invented a new tactic, which is amazing after all of these years of warfare, and he should be commended. The guy is some sort of idiot savant, a mad scientist, the swamp fox, or something, oh well, never mind. He should post an article on Bil's Battle Drill Blog. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Elvis has apparently invented a new tactic, which is amazing after all of these years of warfare, and he should be commended. The guy is some sort of idiot savant, a mad scientist, the swamp fox, or something, oh well, never mind. He should post an article on Bil's Battle Drill Blog. As a former opponent of Elvis, I must say that this kind of comments are... unwarranted. He's a crafty player, that knows well the engine and who can only be underestimated at your peril. And who also makes mistakes very much as everyone else, including yours truly. I wonder how well would his "critics" fare against Bil. It's hard to look good when you're pitted against the very best. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think the main relevance would be as a counter to handheld AT ambushes (especially Panzerfaust and AT grenades) in close terrain. And I think their main use would be local defense while pulling guard duty during laager. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chops Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 As a former opponent of Elvis, I must say that this kind of comments are... unwarranted. He's a crafty player, that knows well the engine and who can only be underestimated at your peril. And who also makes mistakes very much as everyone else, including yours truly. I wonder how well would his "critics" fare against Bil. It's hard to look good when you're pitted against the very best. My previous post was not intended to be taken seriously , except the part about Elvis being commended. He has an interesting approach to this and is causing Soviet casualties. He is a pesky little defender along the lines of a Ken. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 "Pesky little defender"??? I am an ATTACKER!!! Even when I only have Stens and my oppo has a friggin' armored battalion. (I've played Elvis a bunch. He's an outstanding partner and a very good player. I am, naturally, better. ) Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadekster Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 "Pesky little defender"??? I am an ATTACKER!!! Even when I only have Stens and my oppo has a friggin' armored battalion. (I've played Elvis a bunch. He's an outstanding partner and a very good player. I am, naturally, better. ) Ken Uh-oh...was that the first gauntlet thrown into someone's face for CMRT? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Dadekster, I fear you've got your metaphors mixed up. You slap someone's face with a glove, but you throw down the gauntlet. I will admit, though, that your approach is certainly hard to ignore and is highly provoking. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Yeah, slapping someone with a plate gauntlet is a way to start and end a duel in one go... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 A la Wiki: "Gauntlets exist in many forms, ranging from flexible fabric and leather gloves, to mail and fully articulated plate armour." So, while lapping someone with a gauntlet might get you a duel, it wouldn't necessarily do them much of an injury aside from their pride. Just to be pedantic as hell. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Just to be pedantic as hell. Hence my specification of a plate gauntlet. I own or have owned 4 or 5 other types of gauntlet, so I'm fully aware of the variety available. AIUI, it's entirely within the remit of duelling (in the smallsword era) to slap the challengee with the gauntlet or other kind of glove that you have to hand when your honour has been impugned, then throw down the glove. Picking up the gauntlet denotes acceptance of the challenge. Using your plate gauntlet might be considered bad form, for obvious reasons, though the guys that fought duels in that era were tough hombres, so maybe it wouldn't draw any remark at all... So Dadekster's initial metaphor cocktail was more about the verb than the noun... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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