CMRT - BETA AAR - German Side

[Michael Emrys]

I'd say that at this point your armor has done its job, namely to discourage bold movement from the ISUs. But leaving them in place is just to invite retribution. I'd pull them back right now into another location from which they can spring another ambush. While killing Reds is definitely a good thing, at this point you have to stay alive to be able to do that. Staying in place just means that Bil knows where you are and will take countermeasures.

Michael

[Aragorn2002]

I'd say that at this point your armor has done its job, namely to discourage bold movement from the ISUs. But leaving them in place is just to invite retribution. I'd pull them back right now into another location from which they can spring another ambush. While killing Reds is definitely a good thing, at this point you have to stay alive to be able to do that. Staying in place just means that Bil knows where you are and will take countermeasures.

Michael

Especially because the Hetzers are very vulnerable themselves, even for artillery. I'd pull them back and make them turn up somewhere else.

[Odin]

Nice shooting Elvis, I'm was a little surprised to see the hetzer's 75mm punch through the ISU-122's frontal armour. Does anyone know how the hetzer's gun compares with that of the Stug or PzIV?

[JoMac]

Nice shooting Elvis, I'm was a little surprised to see the hetzer's 75mm punch through the ISU-122's frontal armour. Does anyone know how the hetzer's gun compares with that of the Stug or PzIV?

The ISU has 90mm Front & Lower Armor @30 degrees ( depending on exact location ), which is roughly 120mm effective armor. The Hetzer's 75mm is comparable to that of the Stug & PzIV. It should reliably penetrate the Upper & Lower Hull at short range within 30 degree off center, but with Medium-Long ranges no penetration.

However, the Gun Mantlet ( about one third of the total front of the ISU 122/152 ) has about 120-140mm at 30 degrees ( depending on exact location ), and the Hetzer should not penetrate at any range.

[c3k]

Elvis,

A nicely sprung pair of jabs. I like, I like.

[Fernando]

Does anyone know how the hetzer's gun compares with that of the Stug or PzIV?

AFAIK the 7,5 cm PaK 39 L/48 mounted on the Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV (L/48) used same ammo and had almost same muzzle velocity as the 7,5 cm KwK 40 L/48 and 7,5 cm StuK 40 L/48 mounted on the Pz.Kpfw. IV and StuG III

[BFCElvis]

I'd say that at this point your armor has done its job, namely to discourage bold movement from the ISUs. But leaving them in place is just to invite retribution. I'd pull them back right now into another location from which they can spring another ambush. While killing Reds is definitely a good thing, at this point you have to stay alive to be able to do that. Staying in place just means that Bil knows where you are and will take countermeasures.

Michael

Told you it was a dilemma. The opportunity is too good to pass up. If I had not gotten a penetration on one and the other had no backed up, I'd be out of there. But don't worry, I'm not going to sit there and try to slug it out. One turn and done is all I'm gonna give it. But I'd be kicking myself the rest of the game if I didn't even try. My guess is that he won't want to slug it out either and that the turn will begin with him backing into the woods.

[TheVulture]

Told you it was a dilemma. The opportunity is too good to pass up. If I had not gotten a penetration on one and the other had no backed up, I'd be out of there. But don't worry, I'm not going to sit there and try to slug it out. One turn and done is all I'm gonna give it. But I'd be kicking myself the rest of the game if I didn't even try. My guess is that he won't want to slug it out either and that the turn will begin with him backing into the woods.

With the show reload rate of the ISU-122 Soviet players will want to avoid stationary head to head duels. They are best used with 1-2 shots from ambush and breaking LOS to reload and pop up again in a different pace. If possible. In this case I'd imagine Bil wants to get his vehicles out of there, so you might get a shoot off as they retreat. If he wants to stay there to duke it out it if probably too your advantage; with the higher ROF of your tanks he is only going to win with a first round hit and some luck.

[Vark]

You also have a roving plane you heard circling, so moving would be a wise precaution.

[Lanzfeld]

I would pause for 30 seconds for a few more shots then back away.

You got the drop on him and that is something you should milk a bit more in my opinion.

[BFCElvis]

I would pause for 30 seconds for a few more shots then back away.

You got the drop on him and that is something you should milk a bit more in my opinion.

Well, it is going to get a full minute. You can probably imagine how anxious I am to get this turn back........ It has the potential of being THE pivotal minute of the battle.

[Battlefront.com]

My advice is similar to what Elvis is planning on doing. No tank engagement is without risks, so moving isn't necessarily buying Elvis anything because at some point he's going to have to face this point again. It seems that the conditions right now aren't too bad. With any luck one ISU is disabled to some extent in a position where it can't cause much harm even if the gun is still functional. In maneuver warfare the ability to denny the opponent to move is usually a victory on its own.

The Hetzer also has the advantage of being a very tough target to hit due to it's small size. That and the gun are about the only things going for it So I'd try to fire a little bit more and then get the heck out of there.

I do agree moving the Panther is wise. Not only does it ensure that Elvis has something left even if the exchange goes sour, the fact that the Panther is moving should make Bil unsettled. And it has a turret so it's going to be the vehicle most adaptable to the next action.

Use the Panther to find/fix the enemy, use the Hetzers to do the dirty work.

Steve

[Fernando]

If Elvis can find a hull down position with some angle added, so the Hetzer front plate gets some additional degrees, it may be very difficult to destroy it other than damaging Hetzer optics and/or weapon. AFAIK most enemy rounds will bounce on the front armor (at 60º + the additional degrees due to the hull down position).

[BFCElvis]

My advice is similar to what Elvis is planning on doing. No tank engagement is without risks, so moving isn't necessarily buying Elvis anything because at some point he's going to have to face this point again. It seems that the conditions right now aren't too bad. With any luck one ISU is disabled to some extent in a position where it can't cause much harm even if the gun is still functional. In maneuver warfare the ability to denny the opponent to move is usually a victory on its own.

The Hetzer also has the advantage of being a very tough target to hit due to it's small size. That and the gun are about the only things going for it So I'd try to fire a little bit more and then get the heck out of there.

I do agree moving the Panther is wise. Not only does it ensure that Elvis has something left even if the exchange goes sour, the fact that the Panther is moving should make Bil unsettled. And it has a turret so it's going to be the vehicle most adaptable to the next action.

Use the Panther to find/fix the enemy, use the Hetzers to do the dirty work.

Steve

My thoughts exactly. I may not get another chance where I have the upper hand. After watching the turn a couple of times (ok...maybe 20). I'm not sure if I killed that monster. I saw all the hatches open a brief glimpse of someone bailing out. Because of how the game works, I think I did knock it out. My Hetzer had it targeted. After the penetration it didn't fire another shot, despite appearing to have a clear LOF. This will normally happen after a knock out. If they had just abandoned the vehicle the Hetzer should have continued firing. I am going to pull both Hetzers out. The one that got the shot off will get a pause before moving so that maybe I can confirm the kill...or get another shot off before leaving. I feel very safe there for the few seconds I'll be paused. He got a bloody nose. The other 122 backed out of sight and I can't imagine he would bring it back to take chance that I won't hit that too.

Having a turret is exactly why I brought the Panther back first too. Maybe to go after that building blowing up T34.

I'll have some screen shots up in a while. By even though I lost a few men this turn (so did Bil), it feels like a big win for that turn.

[ratdeath]

Awesome AAR's from both sides and looking forward to the CMRT release

[John Kettler]

Elvis,

Nice shooting! Did you do the deeds with PzGr 39, or is there PzGr 40 available for such tough AFV targets as this monster? As for tactics, I'm emphatically with the "stick and move" contingent. You're small and hard to hit, but even with a good hull down position which dramatically enhances your effective armor protection, that 122, firing HE mind you, can demolish your front. That's what it did to a King Tiger in tests. Please see Archive Awareness: IS-2 vs The German Big Cats.

Regards,

John Kettler

[BFCElvis]

First shot fired!!!

Aw man....hit a tree on the way there. I'm holding my breath when watching this, praying to the flying spaghetti monster that I'll get a second shot off before he does. Then I see him backing up.

My Hetzer gets another shot off!

A hit!!!!!!!!

It stops moving and then....the hatches all open! I spot no men but the infantry icon appears! He's out. I can't tell if it has been knocked out or just bailed.

[BFCElvis]

What about my heros on the left edge. The other guys that got the drop on Bil last turn?

A few more shots before pulling back.

Pulling back. "Ah, can't wait to get back to the rest of the platoon and see how we can help."

Uh oh, Bil drops direct mortar fire right on the spot they fell back to. Well boys, you did well for me. I'll send your widows the medals that you earned.

[BFCElvis]

The biggest news moving forward is that it appears that Bil is finally making his move on BLAU.

A couple of his men go down pretty quickly. Then comes then T34.

It immediately decides it doesn't like the team I have in the building taking potshots at his comrades and blasts a shot right at him...killing 2 men.

The last man in the team gets out before he decides to level the building.

[BFCElvis]

I really want my HQ to bug out of the building he is using to call in the 120mm but I need him to stay in place just a little bit longer. The spotting rounds are coming down and it would be fantastic if one was slightly off the target area.

Looking at BLAU from up on high you can see that the strength of my men there are on in the backside of the direction he is attacking from. I can safely move them out or stay and slug it out as best I can. HHmmmmmmmm....

[Battlefront.com]

Elvis,

My advice... let the lead fly NOW. Mortars are by nature inaccurate so you might get a lucky hit on that one unit. Remember, slightly off target mortars at a critical time is probably better than accurate mortars when it's already too late. Bil's at the edge of the woods with a tank. Don't expect him to sit around for very long.

Steve

[AttorneyAtWar]

Elvis,

My advice... let the lead fly NOW. Mortars are by nature inaccurate so you might get a lucky hit on that one unit. Remember, slightly off target mortars at a critical time is probably better than accurate mortars when it's already too late. Bil's at the edge of the woods with a tank. Don't expect him to sit around for very long.

Steve

I agree judging from that overhead picture you have their, there is going to be a lot of angry Russians coming out of those woods very soon...

[mjkerner]

... is probably better than accurate mortars when it's already too late.

Steve

I've been there too many times. I agree, hit it now!

[John Kettler]

Elvis,

There's a reason the British in the Western Desert kept firing at tanks they hit until they either burned or exploded. That way, you're sure. If the situation doesn't permit this, may I suggest keeping infantry in a position to put bullets into anyone trying to enter the beast? As for mortars, you're most likely talking potentially devastating treebursts. Since Bil's under time pressure, he can't back off (probably wouldn't; not his style) and ride out the strike. Besides, who knows where the next spotting round might come down? And what if you really drop a fire mission on him, rather than a spotting round? He already knows it's bad to sit tight. So we're clear, I don't know where his infantry is relative to your current target area. Have you considered Target Linear across his estimated front? Don't know whether this is allowed, and it might screw up your shoot. Again, am not sure.

To me, his only viable decision is to close rapidly, seeking to have your fire mission land behind his men. In the Vietnam War, this was known as holding the belt buckle and was assiduously practiced by the VC and the NVA. The thinking was that if their soldiers were really close to ours, then we wouldn't be able to use our huge firepower against them, lest we hit our own troops. He doesn't have your belt buckle yet, and you have nothing like U.S. Vietnam War firepower, but I think he's lunging for your belt. I have no handle on TOF if you decide to let him have it, nor any sense of how fast his men can move toward you. But I believe that to avoid having your 120s paste him, he's likely to push his men hard enough to force them to rest a bit following dash or die. It'd be great if you had some hot lead there as a welcoming party.

Steve,

What about reviving the death clock? Always thought that was a nail-biting feature! Unless the AFV hit either visibly ignited or blew up, the opposing tank crew wouldn't know what'd happened. As it is, we've got instant BDA, or am I missing something? Not at all certain what changes may've been made from 2.12.

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

I will withold any advice since I'm reading both threads and I'd hate to inadvertantly reveal information. Oh, was that a hint to others? Hmmm, maybe. Maybe not.

Nice with the Hetzers.

I like the Blau setup; what do you think are the pro's and con's of your plan? Give us your thinking. How do you see the rest of the battle unfolding?

Ken