Is it just me or.....

[Blackatmis]

....the eastern front gets neglected like a redheaded stepchild? I mean I know that Normandy, Africa, and Italy are more familiar to people in the West and I suppose for marketing reasons that's smart to have those versions first. If that is the case, it's a sad commentary on the West's ignorance that like 90% of the German Forces bled to death on the Eastern Front and the invasions of Normandy, Africa, and Italy are a scant drop in the bucket compared to the millions killed in Barbarossa. So this begs the question: when is CMBBx2?????? I'm just going to keep periodically asking until it finally rears its head.

[John Kettler]

Blackatmis,

Welcome aboard! If I missed you earlier.

Fear not, for there are many Eastern Front enthusiasts here, to include me. Operation Bagration is coming. Details here.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=107179

I should add, though, there will NEVER be a CMBB replacement, just as there will NEVER be a CMBO replacement. It's a bad approach from a business standpoint (bad = potentially fatal for BFC) and an unbelievable amount of work, under the CMx2 model, to create. Talking multiple exponents in time and money, let alone skilled personnel, to build a virtual Tiger 1 in CMFI vs CMBO. The former is a highly complex, dynamic representation of the AFV, systems, system locations, vulnerabilities and more in 3-D. No longer is it M-Kill, F-Kill, K-Kill. Tanks can be eaten a bit at a time, since damage is cumulative and function specific.

The new approach is based on core games, such as CM Eastern Front 1: Operation Bagration, Modules (such as GL is for CMFI), Packs (new goodies but somewhat off the core game/module path) and Upgrades. For example, it's now possible, via upgrade, to provide CMBN with CMFI features, such as the must have Cover Armor Arc. That's an upgrade if ever there was one! There was no way to do this in the past. Your CMx1 game had what it had. There was no way, for example, to include vehicle dust (CMAK) or Cover Armor Arc (CMBB) in CMBO. The coding didn't support such improvements, where CMx2 is designed specifically to allow such wonders.

Regards,

John Kettler

[A Canadian Cat]

....the eastern front gets neglected like a redheaded stepchild?

Well I know it is coming later on in their schedule but in the end the stated plan is there will be *more* content for the Eastern Front than the Western. We know of plans for the CMBN game and modules, a Bulge game and modules and CMFI and module(s). For the Eastern front they have plans to make four games each with modules to cover the massive section of the war.

You might not like the scheduling choices but I don't think you can call it neglect. If there is neglect it would be for the early years of the war in the West.

I mean I know that Normandy, Africa, and Italy are more familiar to people in the West and I suppose for marketing reasons that's smart to have those versions first.

Perhaps but from the get go there have been loads of people on the forums declaring their interest in the Eastern front. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[Blazing 88's]

I would like to know why so late 1944? Missing most of what I enjoy about the Eastern Front 1941 - 43. Oh well.

[YankeeDog]

Personally, I'm glad East Front is later in the schedule as this gives more time for the game engine to be improved and new features added. The game engine is leaps and bounds better now than it was when CMSF first came out in 2007, and I'm sure it will continue to improve.

Of the CMx1 games, I definitely preferred CMBB over the others, and once they're released, I suspect I'll prefer the East Front games over the other CMx2 Games.

Good things come to those who wait...

[YankeeDog]

I would like to know why so late 1944? Missing most of what I enjoy about the Eastern Front 1941 - 43. Oh well.

Probably because Mid-1944 is contemporary with CMBN and therefore they already have most of the research and unit modeling done for the German side.

IIRC, there are eventual plans to release games for other years on the East Front. I'd be very surprised if they don't do 1943 pretty shortly after the initial 1944-45 game family -- Kursk/Citadelle is a virtual requirement for any East Front game series. And I imagine they'll get all the way back to 1941 eventually.

[pord]

In general, I would say the Eastern Front is portrayed much more than Italy. Of the games I've played this is one of the few WWII games that includes the Italian troops, and for that I am grateful.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

“All previous versions of CM are just R&D for the Eastern Front.....”

I agree that it has been neglected. If you take the WWII up to end March ’45, so there were still two fronts and semi functioning C&C system, 76% of German military casualties were on the Eastern Front. From German military’s own records.

There are advantages in the long delay in that CMX2 has matured a lot over the years.

But as others have pointed out, lots of Eastern Front goodness now coming our way .

We are lucky to have CM at all.... just look at the competition... !

All the best,

Kip.

[76mm]

IIRC, there are eventual plans to release games for other years on the East Front. I'd be very surprised if they don't do 1943 pretty shortly after the initial 1944-45 game family -- Kursk/Citadelle is a virtual requirement for any East Front game series. And I imagine they'll get all the way back to 1941 eventually.

They've already said that they will do the East Front in reverse-chrono order--mid 44-45, mid 43-44, mid 42-43, mid 41-42. Plus modules and hopefully some packs. I don't anticipate any shortage of content, although I wish they'd hurry up already, and yes, I'd have also prefered chrono order instead of reverse chrono order.

[Michael Emrys]

In general, I would say the Eastern Front is portrayed much more than Italy. Of the games I've played this is one of the few WWII games that includes the Italian troops, and for that I am grateful.

This. My history of wargaming goes back to 1964 and in that time I have witnessed a virtual Niagara of games on the Eastern Front—I am talking possibly hundreds here—but the games based on the Italian front can almost be counted on the fingers of one hand. There are doubtlessly reasons for that, some of them good, but there is a very large imbalance here and for BFC to try to fill the gap is a courageous move. Let's not slam them for that.

Michael

[sburke]

Look at it this way. If they had delivered CM-EF first how happy would folks be with the number of things missing? Fire, Winter, Tank riders... think about the number of items folks have already raised that are actually more important for the EF than WF. So instead think of it as BF insuring they get it about as right as they can. They get a good part of the German vehicle and infantry models done. They will hopefully iron out some more things with the UI and AI maybe even try something with trenches and foxholes and better forms of entrenchments and THEN launch the EF. They do it in reverse order as that is faster, they have one sides stuff mostly done for 1944. If they started in 1941 you'd have to wait for them to redo everything and we'd likely gripe about why they don't start in 1944 as we'd have something faster.

Yeah we have to be patient, but the reward for that patience should be pretty darned good.

[MikeyD]

You can't do everything at once. Gustav Line was a good strategic move for them because it was a venue to iron out any bugs implementing seasons, mud, weather, and the new [tag] system for art, 'movie' shading, etc. etc. Plus it continued to build up their inventory of German equipment. Eastern Front is going to be a MASSIVE undertaking, its best to front-load as much of the grunt work beforehand as possible.

[Battlefront.com]

Most of what needs to be said has been said. But I'll make some things official

1. Eastern Front hasn't been ignored. The first installment is actually well along in development already.

2. If one were to look at wargames throughout wargaming history, the Italian campaign probably runs 4th to Western, Eastern, and North African campaigns in terms of game developer efforts. I think Fortress Italy is quite a breath of fresh air for gaming. Obviously not if you're a die hard Eastern Front fan

3. We are a game company and an important element in that is staying in business. Western Front is by far, by far, the most marketable part of WW2. I'd rather annoy a minority of our customer base by taking a while to get them what they want than to annoy the majority.

4. The Eastern Front is a huge, daunting task to cover. We absolutely must break it up into chunks or we'll never survive long enough to actually release the end product. Starting with 1944/45 makes the most amount of sense because we have a great body of stuff to work from already. Which means you get an Eastern Front game faster than you would if we did something like 1941. Probably 8-12 months sooner.

5. We will have lots of Modules and Packs for the Eastern Front. The amount of stuff to cover there is so vast it is unavoidable.

Note that all of this is coming from a guy whose primary interest in warfare has always been, and likely will always be, Eastern Front.

Steve

[cjslax6]

Steve you forgot to include the release date in your response.

[Vark]

Would you logically backtrack (Korsun) or go forward (Prussia, Berlin)? Just for interest Steve, as God, in the BF universe (ok, one of a pantheon) what displeases you about your creation? What would you like to fix straightaway using angelic minions? And, as I ask my students, could you possibly rank them in descending order of importance of fixing/tweaking/throwing out and rebuilding again-ness?

[Lt Belenko]

Steve you forgot to include the release date in your response.

Great. Now I need to clean my monitor after spewing coffee out in a fit of laughter.

[mjkerner]

The fact that the Eastern Front is not the most-gamed front is actually quite a surprise to me. Ever since I started "officially" board and miniature gaming 40+ years ago (and on computers more recently), I was always under the impression the the EF was hands down the most popular.

To me, it's all good gaming, especially in the CMx2 format! When I'm playing it, I am still in awe that I am actually manuevering teams/squads/platoons/companies/battalions in a faithful-to-history simulation that in WEGO creates such an enjoyable war movie experience, even when, as usual, I'm getting my ass handed to me in a hat!

[Battlefront.com]

EF is by far, hands down, the favored environment for hardcore wargamers. So if you are one, chances are you are an Eastern Front fan. But if you include casual wargamers and strategy/tactical gamers... Eastern Front drops off in interest. There are tons of reasons for that, the biggest one being that the largest audience of gaming customers have an affinity for Allied forces.

CMBB sold 50% as much as CMBO, yet it was a bigger and (technically) better game. There's tons of discussions about this phenomena over the last 10 years, but it always comes back to what I just said above. Eastern Front appeals most strongly to hardcore wargamers and hardcore wargamers are a minority of our customer base.

It doesn't mean there is no interest in Eastern Front, rather it's not at the top of the majority of CM customers' list. CM or not, this is a fact I've seen repeated time and time again on the computer gaming side of things.

Another thing that might come as a surprise... our predictions are that the size of the Eastern Front CM audience is about the same size as Modern warfare. This is based on a number of factors, but we won't know for sure until we have the next Modern game selling alongside the first Eastern Front title.

Steve

[Sergei]

One part of the issue is that a lot of wargamers are Americans - because that's where the modern form amateur hobby springs from not very long ago, and plenty of American hobbyists don't care about anything too "foreign", to put it bluntly. I remember the comments way back when as true grognards would complain that the soldiers talk in their native tongues instead of stereotypically accented English! You can't make this up... I don't mean to scorn, I myself don't have as much interest in Pacific Theatre for similar reasons. Our cultures combined with personal affinities define what historical events we most closely relate to. It's not only regional but also historical - some are more interested in Modern, Napoleonic, Medieval or Ancient wars than WW2, and there's no way of changing their minds! Though fortunately most people do tend to recognize a good game regardless of the era. For example, I'm not a huge fan of modern warfare, but I have learned to love CMSF for all the things it does!

The reverse side of the coin is that as a lot of your usual market segment is American, even if there would be an equal potential market in Europe, it would understandably not be as easy to reach. Except, it should be - correct me if I'm wrong but you have had regional distribution deals with German, Swedish and Russian partners, and you have taken localization quite seriously, though full localization in a market area as diverse as Europe is difficult, and we are living the global internet era (which is how I learned about CMBO Alpha demo in the first place). And then there's Martin, he should cover 3-5 European nations... Despite of all of this, I think there is a profound lack of true wargamers in Europe. But stay strong, my brothers, we will get there one day!!!

[MikeyD]

I was going to post something but I see Sergei's already made my point for me. I can still recall a decade ago CMBO players' 'outrage' that CMBB would be released without spoken English, and their categorical refusal to purchase the game 'on principle'. When BFC did release CMAK these people mostly used that title to recreate CMBO battles all over again! :mad:

[Sequoia]

I was going to post something but I see Sergei's already made my point for me. I can still recall a decade ago CMBO players' 'outrage' that CMBB would be released without spoken English, and their categorical refusal to purchase the game 'on principle'. When BFC did release CMAK these people mostly used that title to recreate CMBO battles all over again! :mad:

Fortunately, (I think) as I understand it, with CMBN being able to be updated this won't occur again. In my mind, the most likely final result for WWII, sometime late in decade, will be 4 Ostfront games and 4 West Front/Med games: CM:BN, CM:FI, Bulge to end of War, and a new North African family. Of course there may always be a complete surprize such as CM:Afghanistan was

[Buzz]

And of course the new improved Modern Era CMSF-2 or whatever it will be called.

"our predictions are that the size of the Eastern Front CM audience is about the same size as Modern warfare. This is based on a number of factors, but we won't know for sure until we have the next Modern game selling alongside the first Eastern Front title."

That is a surprise to me. I am guessing the new Modern game, incorporating all the changes currently in CMFI-GL-BN-CW and the improvements to come that the new CMSF-2 or whatever it is named will market better than you predict Steve. You know the business and the numbers so I am just guessing.

"fortunately most people do tend to recognize a good game regardless of the era. For example, I'm not a huge fan of modern warfare, but I have learned to love CMSF for all the things it does!"

Sergei is correct. Looking back I suspect CMSF marketed well to non modern folks because it was (and still is) a good game in 2013. CMSF-2 will be much better and "selling alongside the first Eastern Front title" makes "good gaming" pretty sweet:)

[lordhedgwich]

Most of what needs to be said has been said. But I'll make some things official

1. Eastern Front hasn't been ignored. The first installment is actually well along in development already.

2. If one were to look at wargames throughout wargaming history, the Italian campaign probably runs 4th to Western, Eastern, and North African campaigns in terms of game developer efforts. I think Fortress Italy is quite a breath of fresh air for gaming. Obviously not if you're a die hard Eastern Front fan

3. We are a game company and an important element in that is staying in business. Western Front is by far, by far, the most marketable part of WW2. I'd rather annoy a minority of our customer base by taking a while to get them what they want than to annoy the majority.

4. The Eastern Front is a huge, daunting task to cover. We absolutely must break it up into chunks or we'll never survive long enough to actually release the end product. Starting with 1944/45 makes the most amount of sense because we have a great body of stuff to work from already. Which means you get an Eastern Front game faster than you would if we did something like 1941. Probably 8-12 months sooner.

5. We will have lots of Modules and Packs for the Eastern Front. The amount of stuff to cover there is so vast it is unavoidable.

Note that all of this is coming from a guy whose primary interest in warfare has always been, and likely will always be, Eastern Front.

Steve

you make it seem like you guys are close to going out of business I thought cmbn and cmfi sold really well

[Michael Emrys]

One part of the issue is that a lot of wargamers are Americans - because that's where the modern form amateur hobby springs from not very long ago, and plenty of American hobbyists don't care about anything too "foreign", to put it bluntly.

True enough, but there is more to it than that. Throughout the '60s and '70s being a wargamer meant being either a boardgamer or a miniatures nut. Before that, miniatures were the only game in town. What this meant was that if you were a wargamer, you were axiomatically hard core. Why? Because going though all the hassle of getting together with others, setting up the game, and then playing it out required a lot of devotion. And mant of those players were devoted not only to the games, but also to the history behind them. And for a lot of them, the Russian Front was where it was at.

Later on, when personal computers began to become common and designers began writing games for them, the demographics changed. A lot of people who would never have gone near a boardgame or a table game began filtering into the hobby. And I think it is these casual gamers—who also tend to be much younger—who have the strongest nationalistic biases. For many of them, all they know of the war is what they've seen on the movie screen, and that is the experience they seek to replicate by playing wargames. It is not surprising at all that a large part of CM's customer base is drawn from this population.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

Fortunately, (I think) as I understand it, with CMBN being able to be updated this won't occur again.

Correct. One of the major reasons for the Upgrade concept is so that once a Family is started it doesn't stop. Which means someone who is narrowly focused on a particular epoch/front will not have envy problems when the next game gets all the attention and they get none for 4-5 more years. None of us are getting any younger!

That is a surprise to me. I am guessing the new Modern game, incorporating all the changes currently in CMFI-GL-BN-CW and the improvements to come that the new CMSF-2 or whatever it is named will market better than you predict Steve. You know the business and the numbers so I am just guessing.

For sure we think there is more "upside potential" to the Modern setting vs. the Eastern Front. However, the Eastern Front audience is about as hardcore as you can get. They will likely buy anything and everything we put out for that Front whereas the Modern folks will likely be more picky. Which is fine with us as our business model is designed explicitly for that sort of thing.

you make it seem like you guys are close to going out of business I thought cmbn and cmfi sold really well

You misunderstood A games developer/publisher is always one foot in the grave, so to speak. Even the huge ones are never without risk of going under. And suddenly, too. Do some Google searches on Electronic Arts' current woes. Several large companies have bit the dust recently as well. And let's not even bemoan where all the serious minded war, strategy, and sim companies from the 1990s wound up.

The best way to avoid putting the other foot in the grave is to understand how precarious things are and to not shift weight to the wrong leg. That's true for any business, really, but in games it seems to be one of the least forgiving of mistakes.

While I never discuss specifics of our business I am always very honest and up-front with you, our customers, about our limitations. And I am never ashamed by them since a company that claims no limitations won't likely make that statement for long before they go under. Think of my comments in that mindset and you'll see they aren't negative. Not at all... things have never been better for Battlefront.

Steve