The start of actual news

[PsychoGeriatric]

Asked and answered, your Honor.

If you want to SIMULATE bridge blowing, then set a hard time limit for capturing a bridge objective. If the objective is NOT captured, then assume the defenders were able to blow the bridge. If the objective IS captured, then assume the bridge is captured intact.

Incorporate the above into your campaign, if you have made one.

Actually SHOWING a bridge being demolished is not required.

Ken

All points fully accepted Sir.

However, the rarity of the tactically relevant occurrence specifically during Market Garden was not as previously stated.

[Myles Keogh]

Instead of canceling Market Garden (CM:MG), which we did contemplate, we decided to pack Market Garden so full of new stuff that people will find value in it and minimize the overlap with Commonwealth that people won't feel like they are buying stuff they might already have. So here's an overview of what's being included:

I'm relieved, but puzzled by the above quote. CM:MG almost landed on the chopping-block because of the fear that it may not provide enough "bang-for-your-buck" original content to people who already own CM:CW?

I don't know, but fallschirmjaegers, AA weapons, Polish Airborne, "scratch" German units, maybe some new equipment and vehicles to recreate other battles of September 1944 (Lorraine, Aachen ect.), Dutch terrain features, and undoubtedly some terrific new campaigns and scenarios sounds like an awful lot of new stuff to me and I own CM:CW.

I'm very much looking forward to this module and have been since it was first mentioned as a possibility over a year ago! Frankly, I was disappointed when BF announced CM:GL as its next module because I knew that meant CM:MG was many months away. Anyway, it's great news to hear that CM:MG is on track for a 2013 release.

[Sequoia]

(I think it would make a very nice scenario and Steve should consider auxiliary cows as a playable unit )

Yes but what KIND of cows were they? Battlefront does things right and if they don't want to catch hell from the cow-grogs such details are important.

[Erwin]

THis could help... also re horses:

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/region/f-europe.html

[Sequoia]

I'm relieved, but puzzled by the above quote. CM:MG almost landed on the chopping-block because of the fear that it may not provide enough "bang-for-your-buck" original content to people who already own CM:CW?

I don't know, but fallschirmjaegers, AA weapons, Polish Airborne, "scratch" German units, maybe some new equipment and vehicles to recreate other battles of September 1944 (Lorraine, Aachen ect.), Dutch terrain features, and undoubtedly some terrific new campaigns and scenarios sounds like an awful lot of new stuff to me and I own CM:CW.

I'm very much looking forward to this module and have been since it was first mentioned as a possibility over a year ago! Frankly, I was disappointed when BF announced CM:GL as its next module because I knew that meant CM:MG was many months away. Anyway, it's great news to hear that CM:MG is on track for a 2013 release.

Plus IIRC US Airborne TO&E was significantly different in Sept '44 then it was in the June drops. I couldn't tell you about the British Airborne and ground units. Maybe some one else can.

[Darknight (DC)]

Plus IIRC US Airborne TO&E was significantly different in Sept '44 then it was in the June drops. I couldn't tell you about the British Airborne and ground units. Maybe some one else can.

IIRC, the British/CW troops TO&E did not differ much from the June '44 establishment.

1st Abn Div had a few very minor differences from 6th Abn.

I think the biggest change in Sept '44 was removing the Armd Car Regts from Corps control and making them Divisional assets.

(There were also a number of changes to the 79th Armd Div in Sept '44 but that isn't really relevant here).

[Battlefront.com]

All points fully accepted Sir.

Yup, that's our position too.

However, the rarity of the tactically relevant occurrence specifically during Market Garden was not as previously stated.

As I said, it did happen. But very rarely. So rarely it's not worth bothering with.

Now, the thing is when it did happen it was probably mostly associated with the use of paras. Market Garden, having the most extensive airborne operation to capture a very large number of bridges, is not surprisingly the "bread basket" of last minute bridge demolition.

In other words, nothing I said is in contradiction with the facts. If there were ever a real need to simulate last minute bridge blowing, it would be for the Market Garden setting. However, because the feature is not very relevant even within Market Garden, and is hardly relevant at all CM wide, it's not a wise use of our resources.

Remember something we've said all along since the beginning of CM's existence. We are not trying to simulate every single possible thing that can happen in warfare. That is an impossible task. We therefore have to pick and choose what we simulate and do so very carefully. This ability of ours to keep a steady hand on the tiller is why CM is what it is and not what the other games are.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

A reminder of what I've already said at least once in this thread... Modules are *NOT* the launchpads of significant new features as a rule. I know you guys always want more, and aren't really concerned about the crushing weight of the cumulative demands made upon us, but reality imposes severe restrictions on what is possible for us to do. Which means probably 99% of what you guys are asking to have done in this thread won't happen. Be it a good idea or not.

Steve

[JRMC1879]

Sublime,

JRMC1879,

Cute! Incorrect, but cute! The engineering rules were pretty good. They had multiple classes and types of bridges, what it took to down them, what it took (time and charges, not to mention transport requirements and manning) to prep them for downing, rules for detonating them, success probabilities, things which could lower those chances of succeeding, etc. Far from your flip roll boxcars type crack!

Regards,

John Kettler

I wasnt being cute - and I wasnt incorrect. None of what you say took a single line of computer code the implement the rules. Which was my point. Paper rules and coding it into a computer simulation are night and day in terms of effort and reward for that effort. I could sit here right now and make up a fistful of rules for bridge demolition - but it bears no relevance to the subject that was being discussed.

[sburke]

This ability of ours to keep a steady hand on the tiller is why CM is what it is and not what the other games are.

Steve

Out of business?

[amidali]

Just a curiosity about the timeframe.

Market Garden should cover the September 1944 period.

The future Combat Mission-Battle of the Bulge should start from December 1944.

Will the period October-November (Hürtgen forest, Aachen, etc.) be covered by an additional CMBN module, or by the Battle of the Bulge game?

Thanks

[Sergei]

This ability of ours to keep a steady hand on the tiller is why CM is what it is and not what the other games are.

For a second there I was thinking you were talking about John Tiller, and was mightily confused...

[Holman]

Just a curiosity about the timeframe.

Market Garden should cover the September 1944 period.

The future Combat Mission-Battle of the Bulge should start from December 1944.

Will the period October-November (Hürtgen forest, Aachen, etc.) be covered by an additional CMBN module, or by the Battle of the Bulge game?

Thanks

If it's after the snow begins to fall, it's in the Bulge game. Thus I'd imagine that Bulge game will start with November, but that's just a guess.

To do Arnhem, some new buildings will be needed. These will probably allow a good depiction of Aachen as well.

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Folding (leaky) canvas boats--with no paddles?

And the Germans should have bicycles (fat chance)! Photo evidence and various accounts totally support this tactical mobility feature at Arnhem. Besides, certain people might do other cool things with them, too. Let's face it, KWs as stand-ins are vastly more capable than bicycles--in speed, passenger capacity and load carrying, so distort the battlefield dynamics. How about an unarmed bicycle riding doctor UNCON?

PsychoGeriatric,

Outstanding, info dense post, featuring gobs of grog goodies!

Juri_JS,

Excellent point! Airborne and Paras carried Hawkins mines for just such purposes. Could be placed singly or daisy chained. Mmm. Daisy chain mines (nostalgia floods in from CMx1 memories).

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

The Bulge title is a long ways off but I would be surprised if it didn't start in October, not December. A lot of cool equipment starts showing up in October, from M36 TD to Sherman Jumbo. Plus there's the Hurtgen forest battles to look into. A couple modules later we could be fighting in the Ruhr, ending on VE day. A 'Bulge only' Bulge title would be an unusually narrow scope for BFC.

[Baneman]

... A lot of cool equipment starts showing up in October, from M36 TD to Sherman Jumbo...

I don't want to get into a grog argument ( since I have no ammunition ), but I thought I read recently ( may well have been here ) that the Sherman Jumbo had been debunked - either didn't reach battlefield in numbers or were only a few field mods ?

Maybe I misremember what I read though.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Market Garden on its own still seems too naarrowv a focus but, if it were the first of a series of games covering all the Siegfried Line battles of the Autumn/Early Winter period prior to the Bulge that would be a differnt matter. Market Garden itself would only cover a week or two of combat. A series of two or three modules covererin all combat in Hollland and along the German borde fro September 1 to December 16 wouold be much m,ore intersesting.

Anf for future WW2 gameswhat about some of the early Blitzkreg camaigns in Poland, France and the Balkans. Maybe Norway and the Russo Finnish War,

[togi]

hello to all

can we call mg is a module with this low content profile?

I think that it should be classified and priced as pack for a fair trade

this is my thought

regards

[sburke]

hello to all

can we call mg is a module with this low content profile?

I think that it should be classified and priced as pack for a fair trade

this is my thought

regards

Based on? None of us know the full content yet. So far BF's issues have usually been trying to figure out the cutoff point because there is simply too much material. I would not be at all surprised to see that be the case here as well. If they do find it is a bit short maybe we can convince them to add material to do 1940 scenarios in Holland... Yeah I know, dream on...

[togi]

Based on? None of us know the full content yet. So far BF's issues have usually been trying to figure out the cutoff point because there is simply too much material. I would not be at all surprised to see that be the case here as well. If they do find it is a bit short maybe we can convince them to add material to do 1940 scenarios in Holland... Yeah I know, dream on...

I can predict from Steve's comments

some soldier models from Bn and Cw

I have these games already and paid 90 usd in total

so this should be a pack and priced a pack for bn+cw owners.

also may be a bundle with cw + bn as a pack for non owner of first two module

regards

[stikkypixie]

I can predict from Steve's comments

some soldier models from Bn and Cw

I have these games already and paid 90 usd in total

so this should be a pack and priced a pack for bn+cw owners.

also may be a bundle with cw + bn as a pack for non owner of first two module

regards

why predict? just wait until you know the full content and price and decide then.

[togi]

price is obvius because it's module and 35 usd

but content will not appropriate to be even a candidate for module

let's match with great GL module

regards

[MikeyD]

Jumbo fun!

The US military did have insufficient quantities of them and eventually resorted to doubling-up the bow armor of standard Shermans to fill the gap.

[Sergei]

price is obvius because it's module and 35 usd

but content will not appropriate to be even a candidate for module

let's match with great GL module

regards

That's a bit early for you to say, don't you think, when you don't know the full contents yet? Let's wait for more information to come out.

Packs, as per previous comments, are a different kind of thing - lots of unrelated units and formations and no campaigns. By that definition MG is not going to be a pack as it's highly thematic (special formations and bridges only related to Market Garden) and there are campaigns. What it's not is a kind of super module that covers the battle for Germany September '44 - May '45 but being more focused doesn't mean it's not worth the money. Base CMBN covers only a fraction of what CMBO did, for instance, but in what detail!

[sburke]

Okay if you are going to insist on suggesting the content to something that isn't even fully fleshed out is insufficient, then perhaps we should review what we got from the ... err... umm... .. Steve's mouth. My highlights added.

Now that Gustav Line is out it's time to start the process of informing you about Combat Mission: Market Garden. But it will take a little while before we start putting out screenshots and other bits.

Portraying the battles of Market Garden posed unique challenges to us on the development end. Specifically that Market Garden requires British and Waffen SS units, which are part of the Commonwealth module. And yet our philosophy is to never require players to purchase Module A to play Module B. Likewise, our philosophy is to not duplicate content in Modules because we don't want to double charge those who want both.

Interesting dilema we got ourselves into, eh?

Instead of canceling Market Garden (CM:MG), which we did contemplate, we decided to pack Market Garden so full of new stuff that people will find value in it and minimize the overlap with Commonwealth that people won't feel like they are buying stuff they might already have. So here's an overview of what's being included:

1. Basic Waffen SS and British units which represent those units that fought directly in the Market Garden battles. Which means the majority of units found in Commonwealth are not present in CM:MG.

2. New German Heer, Waffen SS, and Luftwaffe units have been added which aren't present in Commonwealth. These better portray the scratch formations which made up the bulk of the early German resistance to the landings. Training, security, school, admin personnel, etc. are available.

3. We've added German Navy units. These poor saps were base and ex-ship personnel thrown into battle without much consideration about their fighting capabilities (which were next to none). In fact, this is the first time we've ever had Navy ground units in a CM game. Though to be honest, it's mostly for flavor as organizationally they weren't that much different from horribly stripped down and under equipped Heer units. Still, it's better to give you explicitly tweaked units than to say "imagine those Heer guys are Navy".

4. AAA units are present for the first time on the Western Front. Not only the sorts of AAA stuff found in Gustav Line, but some new fun things like Wirbelwind and Crusader AA.

5. The Germans also now have access to Panzer Brigades. These armor heavy units are uniquely organized and contain the ever fun SPW 251/21 in large numbers.

6. Fallschirmjäger are now present, all the way from June through September.

7. Some new vehicle variants for all forces just to keep things interesting.

8. New terrain features to create the feeling you're battling in The Netherlands and not France. Yes, we have even included a windmill

9. Bridges. Lots of 'em We are including 5 custom made historically accurate bridges, a canal bridge, and 3 new generic long bridges. Some, like the Arnhem road bridge, are massive. For the larger ones we include "stubs" which map makers can use to simulate fights around the entrance to a bridge without having the other 500+ meters stuck in there.

And before the questions start flying about what new game features are to be added... a reminder that as a rule Modules do not add new game elements unless they are directly necessary for that particular Module. Besides the new bridges and some other terrain related stuff, we don't see the need for new features and therefore there won't be many directly related to Market Garden. However, anything new that was added for Gustav Line will be automatically carried over to the entire Normandy Family of games. Such as new shaders, "movie" lighting, bug fixes, gameplay tweaks, AAA support, etc. No worries there.

There's no doubt more stuff than that, but I think that's enough for now to get things started.

Steve