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Fire and Rubble

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1 hour ago, 76mm said:

Actually most of us Bolshie lovers won't get too upset, because those red bastards got the last laugh, so to speak, and we are too-well-used-to wargame developers pandering to players that glorify the German military.

That said, I have no idea why you'd consider that "honoring the last stand of the Wehrmacht" would be more "fair" than honoring those that defeated Nazism after it had treacherously invaded their country?  Weird...

So full of yourself and yet so ignorant.

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I think if one doesn't start by insulting everyone then one might not get such responses.  "bolshie lovers" is perhaps "So full of yourself and yet so ignorant".  Trying to be somewhat objective on this perhaps greatest of all historical tragedies does not make someone ignorant or arrogant.  If you had just said you had some names you liked it would have been a harmless post.  It's easy to say "but just look at what the Bolshies did after the war to eastern Europe!" while ignoring that they never would've been in eastern europe if Hitler hadn't invaded Russia.

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Yes, note that the Germans collaborated with the Soviet Union to destroy the one nation that had actually checked the advance of communism in the twenties... People say that "history is written by the victors", but in this case it was written by former fascists who were now fighting "the good fight" for NATO, in many cases, justifying their genocidals war as something noble. Wish the commies had put them all up against the wall to give them something to cry about.

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WWII was literally the most catastrophic man-made event in human history. If you include Japan and China in the mix some 80 million people died (out of a world population not much larger than 2.3 billion) in the space of a few short years. The scale of atrocities is unimaginable. By war's end even the 'good guys' were incinerating entire city populations. Looking back on his actions in the Pacific General Curtis Lemay commented "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal." WWII is a template for nobody for how nations should act.

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4 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Personally I think the module shouldn't also be named after those red bastards, but should honor the last stand of the Wehrmacht. 

Last Stand, Last Laurels, something like that.

I know this will piss off the Bolshie lovers, but fair is fair.

Yes, the last stand of the "glorious" Wehrmacht!

Fanatics, 15 year olds and old men who were either forced to fight by threat of death or made sure that the suffering continued needlessly for the last few months.

Luckily your line of thinking is finally dying out now that our understanding of the war has moved on from Guderians memoirs. Christ.

Edit: And those "Red bastards" you speak of were the true heroes, they endured the whole sale slaughter of their families and countrymen to finally destroy that disgusting organization and naziism in general. I'm no fan of Stalin but I have to call out the absolute deafness in your post. Go read a history book that wasn't written by a German general who desperately tried to save his career.

Edited by AttorneyAtWar

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3 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

We have been asked to refrain from politics a number of times on this forum. 

Indeed.

This has gone off the rails fast and it isn't a thread that I want to lock up. So, why doesn't every play nice. 

2 hours ago, 3j2m7 said:

Yes something neutral but a name  representing both countries without "blessing" the other site and more democratic...

Correct. Something like Fire and Rubble. Which is the official and not changing name of the module. 

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1 hour ago, Aragorn2002 said:

So full of yourself and yet so ignorant.

Says the guy spouting off about "bolshie lovers" and "red bastards"?  Seriously? 

And ignorant about what, exactly?  I've lived in Germany for five years and in Russia for 15 years, so know both countries reasonably well.  I've read hundreds of books about the Eastern Front, so don't really consider myself ignorant about the war either.  Spent four years in the army, so know something about military stuff...  So what please enlighten me how you are so much better informed that I am?  Or perhaps are you one of those people that considers anyone that doesn't agree with them "ignorant"?

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6 minutes ago, 76mm said:

Says the guy spouting off about "bolshie lovers" and "red bastards"?  Seriously? 

And ignorant about what, exactly?  I've lived in Germany for five years and in Russia for 15 years, so know both countries reasonably well.  I've read hundreds of books about the Eastern Front, so don't really consider myself ignorant about the war either.  Spent four years in the army, so know something about military stuff...  So what please enlighten me how you are so much better informed that I am?  Or perhaps are you one of those people that considers anyone that doesn't agree with them "ignorant"?

Yes.🙂

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1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

WWII was literally the most catastrophic man-made event in human history. If you include Japan and China in the mix some 80 million people died (out of a world population not much larger than 2.3 billion) in the space of a few short years. The scale of atrocities is unimaginable. By war's end even the 'good guys' were incinerating entire city populations. Looking back on his actions in the Pacific General Curtis Lemay commented "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal." WWII is a template for nobody for how nations should act.

for sure, MikeyD.  I don't look at this as good or bad on the soldier level.  It's men thrown into something by powers way above them, and women and children crushed underfoot along the way.  Some are heroic in a bad cause.  Some are bad in a heroic cause.  The good guys kill civilians, the bad guys kill civilians.  

Anyway, moving on -- when do I get more Fire & Rubble & T34s & king tigers in the snow??  You can call it No Joy in Mudville, I don't care too much just let me know when i can buy it.

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On 10/26/2019 at 8:27 AM, 76mm said:

That said, IMHO Fire and Rubble is rather blah--is this set in stone or is it a temporary placeholder?

Personally I think Fire and Rubble is the perfect name for der Götterdämmerung.

Michael

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On 10/27/2019 at 7:17 AM, Warts 'n' all said:

"Hubble, bubble, toil and trouble"

Can't resist a correction. The actual lines go:

Double double toil and trouble

Fire burn and cauldron bubble

I along with the rest of my English class had to recite those lines and we really got into it.

:D

Michael

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8 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

Can't resist a correction. The actual lines go:

Double double toil and trouble

Fire burn and cauldron bubble

I along with the rest of my English class had to recite those lines and we really got into it.

:D

Michael

Hahahahahaha ... Thanks Mike. That is what comes of having an alta ego who closed the playhouses down. I do actually own a copy of "The Complete Works" but I'm ashamed to say I only got as far as "The Henrys".

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