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Fire and Rubble


BFCElvis

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10 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Not sure, but it sure sounds good. 🙂

 

Since I'm not sure which bit might have been unclear and I know the written word if difficult when you're not Hemingway, I'll try to add some clarity. 🙂

 

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There's a big group we haven't seen yet

This comments pertains to formation(s) that aren't in the game yet. Full formation(s) that aren't in the most recent beta build at all. That's a good sized thing but not as big as it might sound (that's why I estimated 90% and not 50% or somefink).

 

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Once that's in it comes down to arguing about what's right or wrong. 🙂

That is the fun bit. Once we start seeing these new formations, discussions about what should or shouldn't have been placed in them take place by people who know a scary amount about things like squad head counts, exactly what weapons each member of a unit should have, ammo counts, pouches in a uniform, you name it. The testers debating these things, and members of this forum who aren't, constantly amaze me with their knowledge. The longer I've been around this the deeper I go down the rabbit hole. Somefink like how many SMGs are in a squad and how many rifles. It affects how the unit behaves in battle. Sometimes I'll play "well, here's a squad. Let me move them in" and sometimes I'll play "I'm sending this squad in because they're carrying x, y and z and that's what's needed in this situation" 

I hope gives a better idea of what I meant. 

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5 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

This comments pertains to formation(s) that aren't in the game yet. Full formation(s) that aren't in the most recent beta build at all. That's a good sized thing but not as big as it might sound (that's why I estimated 90% and not 50% or somefink).

 

Am I correct when I say this is the part of the module which is 'outsourced' to people 'outside' BF? I remember you or Steve mentioned something like that some time ago. Could be wrong though. Perhaps I'm using the wrong terms, but I do remember that it was part of the reason why a release date was hard to predict.

5 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

hat is the fun bit. Once we start seeing these new formations, discussions about what should or shouldn't have been placed in them take place by people who know a scary amount about things like squad head counts, exactly what weapons each member of a unit should have, ammo counts, pouches in a uniform, you name it. The testers debating these things, and members of this forum who aren't, constantly amaze me with their knowledge. The longer I've been around this the deeper I go down the rabbit hole. Somefink like how many SMGs are in a squad and how many rifles. It affects how the unit behaves in battle. Sometimes I'll play "well, here's a squad. Let me move them in" and sometimes I'll play "I'm sending this squad in because they're carrying x, y and z and that's what's needed in this situation"

Yes, I can imagine that's one part of the process which is difficult to estimate with regard to how much time it will take. Tiresome, but necessary. Personally I would like to see the option that Volksgrenadier units have (much) more StG 44's and G-43's than other German units, so I hope that will be taken into consideration too. A long time ago we had a thread about this and I posted some evidence that the StG 44 was more common towards  the end of the war  than normally assumed, especially at the Eastern front. Anyone who ever tried to clear out a Soviet PPSH squad out of a building or forest with a German rifle equipped squad will know what I mean. 🙂

5 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

I hope gives a better idea of what I meant. 

I think it does. Thanks for that.🙂

Edited by Aragorn2002
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11 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Am I correct when I say this is the part of the module which is 'outsourced' to people 'outside' BF? I remember you or Steve mentioned something like that some time ago. Could be wrong though. Perhaps I'm using the wrong terms, but I do remember that it was part of the reason why a release date was hard to predict.

Nope. It's not outsourced. Steve has very deep and extensive knowledge and source material. And there are some beta testers that seem to have information and resources that make me wondering if they studied this stuff in college or somefink. And then there are people who post something on the public forums that end up getting discussed "backstage". I guess it's the nature of the war game genre. It attracts people who know this stuff inside and out and doing the research for many of them seems to be more enjoyable than playing the games. I find that with a lot of scenario designers too. They enjoy making a scenario more than fighting the battle.

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Anyone who ever tried to clear out a Soviet PPSH squad out of a building or forest with a German rifle equipped squad will know what I mean. 🙂

Exactly why this stuff is so important.

I just reminded myself of a good example of the level of detail the TO&E that goes into the game. I had a guy contact me the other day saying that he couldn't purchase an SPW 251/3 in single vehicles. They were only available in the Panzergrenadier Battalion 44 (armored). The guy asking said he could have sworn he had done individual purchases of them in old scenarios he'd made. I decided to ask Steve if this was intentional or needed to be fixed. He replied quickly (this is a copy/paste) :

"

"The 251/3 should never have been available, but I can’t say for sure that it wasn’t accidentally allowed at some point.  As a hard and fast rule, no command or specialized non-combat support vehicles are ever allowed for individual purchase.  We are not going to change that.
 
For this one specifically, the logic is pretty straight forward.  In real life the 251/3 was only ever used to transport a select number of HQ units.  We don’t allow purchasing stand alone HQs, therefore to be consistent we shouldn’t allow the purchase of the 251/3.
 
Plus, there’s really no difference between a 251/3 and a 251/1 except for passenger capacity."
 
These kinds of things are discussed all the time. And it's a large part of what caused Rome to Victory to get dragged out for so long. That should not be the case with Fire and Rubble.
 
Edit: It was a conversation about CMBN. Also, I'm probably belaboring the point because I've very loquacious today for some reason.
 
 
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5 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Me too, but the Jagdpanzer IV/70 beats them all! 🙂

Stug IV or Guderian's duck? Difficult choice!. I asume that this module will be a festival of tank hunters: elephant, jagdpanther early/late, stug III & IV, jagdpanzer IV (A/V) jagdtiger (asking me if we'll see the porsche version), ... It sounds interesting.
The opposite face should be a smaller number of tanks in armored units (for german side, of course). At least I hope to see finally the lastest version pf Pz IV J with only three return rollers by side and double flame-suppressing mufflers.

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23 hours ago, Bud Backer said:

Top one is early. The bottom is late. :)

It's not as sexy as a panther at full speed but dang.. .I do like the StuG IV! 

 

Does anyone have an opinion as to which was better - the III or the IV?  Since they both had the same gun I would guess the (slightly) smaller III with better suspension would have an advantage.  Probably a very tiny advantage...

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On 4/22/2020 at 5:27 PM, Mr.X said:

Persistent question 🤓:

will SS-(Police) Units be included? I am asking because of my campaign project.

 

They had not been soldiers, instead they had been mass murderers murdering civilians. If they will be included I am not going to buy this module. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen


 

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@ Kraut:

Sorry, I don‘t like any political discussion considering the fact, that we are playing a PC-Game. 
If you prefer this moral point of view, you should not buy any game including WW II.

And if your historical horizon is based on Wikipedia, your intention should be to read more serious books.

And for your historical Information🤓:

In July 1944, parts of the KG von Gottberg and parts of KG Hannibal (consisting of Police- and SS-Police Units) were forced to  defend the German Frontlines in the Belorussian Region against the Red Army. These units had only partizipated in the (so called) Partisan War before and suffered high casualties due to their poor equipement, training and skill-level.

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On 4/25/2020 at 12:35 AM, Mr.X said:

@ Kraut:

Sorry, I don‘t like any political discussion considering the fact, that we are playing a PC-Game. 
If you prefer this moral point of view, you should not buy any game including WW II.

Refrain from telling me what I should do! 

On 4/25/2020 at 12:35 AM, Mr.X said:

And if your historical horizon is based on Wikipedia, your intention should be to read more serious books.

And for your historical Information🤓:

In July 1944, parts of the KG von Gottberg and parts of KG Hannibal (consisting of Police- and SS-Police Units) were forced to  defend the German Frontlines in the Belorussian Region against the Red Army. These units had only partizipated in the (so called) Partisan War before and suffered high casualties due to their poor equipement, training and skill-level.

If your historical knowledge is so great, why are you so much obsessed with the idea to include the Police- and SS-Police Units into the game?

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45 minutes ago, _Kraut_ said:

Refrain from telling me what I should do! 

If your historical knowledge is so great, why are you so much obsessed with the idea to include the Police- and SS-Police Units into the game?

 

On 4/24/2020 at 3:35 PM, Mr.X said:

@ Kraut:

Sorry, I don‘t like any political discussion considering the fact, that we are playing a PC-Game. 
If you prefer this moral point of view, you should not buy any game including WW II.

And if your historical horizon is based on Wikipedia, your intention should be to read more serious books.

And for your historical Information🤓:

In July 1944, parts of the KG von Gottberg and parts of KG Hannibal (consisting of Police- and SS-Police Units) were forced to  defend the German Frontlines in the Belorussian Region against the Red Army. These units had only partizipated in the (so called) Partisan War before and suffered high casualties due to their poor equipement, training and skill-level.

I think their tactical significance is pretty nil in comparison to other units. Were already getting detailed Waffen SS units which will probably include Recon, School, Fusilier and Ersatz battalions. I don't think the devs need to add a niche unit that's pretty much remembered as genocidal killers. 

Edited by Anonymous_Jonze
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22 minutes ago, Anonymous_Jonze said:

I don't think the devs need to add a niche unit that's pretty much remembered as genocidal killers. 

Whole SS organization was recognized by tribunal like guilty in atrocities. So, with this logic and morale position any SS troops - frontline or auxiliary should be banned. Troopers of many SS-divisions also murderd civilians and sometime guarded deathcamps. 

Though, SS-politzei regiments also used in many operations (for example in Warsaw apprising, which has been discussing here), one interst point for me - they had tank companies with rarity trofy armor. So just for combat modelling i don't see any obstacles. They are part of operation history, part of WWII.

This reminds me Soviet times, when were prohibited for manufacturing any models of WWII-time German planes, armor, soldiers etc. Even the model of Dutch Fokker-21 fighter wanted to prohibit despite Netherland fought against Hitler. Soviet censorship did not like name "Fokker", which associated with shorten name of German FW-190 among Soviet soldiers.

Edited by Haiduk
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5 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

Whole SS organization was recognized by tribunal like guilty in atrocities. So, with this logic and morale position any SS troops - frontline or auxiliary should be banned. Troopers of many SS-divisions also murderd civilians and sometime guarded deathcamps. 

Though, SS-politzei regiments also used in many operations (for example in Warsaw apprising, which has been discussing here), one interst point for me - they had tank companies with rarity trofy armor. So just for combat modelling i don't see any obstacles. They are part of operation history, part of WWII.

This reminds me Soviet times, when were prohibited any models of WWII-time German planes, armor, soldiers etc.

I don't disagree with you but from what I've read it seems like the police battalions were specifically used as death squads. The overall purpose of Waffen SS wasn't so cut and dry. But hey its all up to interpretation. I'd be interested to see a Penal squad and those didn't have the greatest reputation.

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2 minutes ago, Anonymous_Jonze said:

like the police battalions were specifically used as death squads.

Much more like anti-partisan and security forces in the rear, wich more or less were equipped with armor. Neither Wehrmacht security divisions nor other OrdnungPolizei units hadn't own armor. Though, I specially didn't research how wide these units used in operations for this module timelaps.

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Am all for game-playing.  But, we'd have to have mods for hanging groups of non-combatants or burning women and children churches or burying them alive etc.  Otherwise what's the point?  Just different uniforms?  In CMSF designers often use the "spies" units as unarmed civilians, so it is possible to program.  But, how to stop the AI units from running out of the church?  

Similar political sensitivities are probably why we don't have "CM: Arab-Israeli Wars" either.  Like many of us, I would buy that title for sure.

Edited by Erwin
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