Fire and Rubble

[Sequoia]

Guys, do we really want this thread locked?

[Majick]

You guys can't change history by imposing your views on this game either way.  Bit too much virtue signalling going on from both sides.... Why not spend time making the real world a better place here and now while we wait for Fire and Rubble?

[Freyberg]

I don't want the thread locked, and I almost never play as Germans, but I'd imagine the scratch SS formations that fought in the last stages of the war will very likely be modeled, and I'm sure that would be adequate to represent SS police units - all you have to do is name them in your scenario.

[DMS]

Hm, I used to play as Stuka and He-111 pilot in "Il-2" game. And that He-111 bombed London and Stalingrad, killed civilians... Now I understand, how wrong I was! (Not really)

Idiots in Russia banned swastikas in games. If someone could ban idiots...

[Erwin]

All one has to do is do a uniform mod, and you can have pretty much any unit you want.  BF simply doesn't want to get bad press re officially portraying mass murderers.  Is that so difficult to understand?

[Mr.X]

If I had known the reaction, I wouldn‘t have asked for these units

So calm down everybody, please. If I remember correctly there have been Police-Units available in the good old CMBB. 
So, it has been a normal and unspectacular question and not any obsession - because the campaign, I am working on, will actually includ parts of such units...because these units did fight at the Frontlinie during this period and because the campaign should be historically correct. No more, no less.

I apologize for feeding Trolls. This forum should never be used for any political discussion. 

[_Kraut_]

3 minutes ago, Mr.X said:

I apologize for feeding Trolls. This forum should never be used for any political discussion. 

First: Who in your opinion is a troll and is a troll someone who points out that these specific units you are requesting had been only known for committing genocidal massacres, while you are trying to rehabilitate them by finding the one time they might have been forced to fight against soldiers and not like they usual did shooting civilians including pregnant women, infants and children in the back.

You wrote that you need the SS police units to simulate the Kampfgruppe von Gottberg which consisted mainly SS Polizei and Polizei Schützen units. This Kampfgruppe had murdered in 1943 until early 1944 50000 civilians far away from the frontline and also liquidated the Ghettos Slonim and Sluzk. 

Second: where is the political discussion? This is historic fact and can only interpret as political if you would falsely claim these genocidal massacres had never happened, or that your beloved units would had nothing to do with that. 

I can agree that a WWII wargame does simulate the forces which have had taken part in the battles. This includes the regular Waffen SS Divisionen which fought at the frontlines. My personal border is that I will not buy a game or module which implement death squads which committed mass murdering civilians in giant scale hundreds Kilometer away from the frontline. These murderers have not been soldiers in my opinion. 

 

[MikeyD]

Volkssturm were organized under the SS, not the army, and they're coming into the game. What few uniforms you see had vaguely SS-style collar rank insignia. In my scenarios research I read of incidents of SS shooting Volkssturm shirkers in the back.

[_greg]

2 hours ago, _Kraut_ said:

I can agree that a WWII wargame does simulate the forces which have had taken part in the battles. This includes the regular Waffen SS Divisionen which fought at the frontlines. My personal border is that I will not buy a game or module which implement death squads which committed mass murdering civilians in giant scale hundreds Kilometer away from the frontline.

So you agree that the game simulates only the forces that took part in battles, yet then you say that it doesn’t matter if the unit also murdered civilians away from the front? That makes no sense.
There should be a clear separation between what the soldiers did during the battles simulated in the game and outside of them. The guy doesn’t want to make scenarios where you burn churches with people in them, Jesus.
He clearly states that he wants them “because these units did fight at the frontlines during this period and because the campaign should be historically correct. No more, no less.” Is it that hard to understand? If I want to simulate battles around Siedlce in 1944 should I make it with just the Soviet side because Totenkopf soldiers weren’t the nicest guys either? That’s stupid.
And telling the guy that he’s obsessed or saying it’s his “beloved” unit right after mentioning their war crimes… Jeez, he wants to make a historically accurate campaign, not get a tattoo with the Wolfsangel..

[BFCElvis]

Let's change the subject.  How bout this........

 

 

[Hadwin73]

@_Greg

I completely agree with you! It is about the depiction of a battle event, not about a moral classification of the participating units.
Otherwise, no WW II game should be released.
Besides, not only the skull units in the Siedlce area were "not the nicest", but also the Red Army units were not without. They not only committed serious war crimes against Germans, but also against Poles, Romanians, Finns... When they are not allowed to participate in the game anymore, it is quite empty on the battlefield. By the way, not all Japanese, Americans, English, Chinese, Poles... were particularly nice.
But with some Germans you can't talk sensibly about this topic. For them the world is black and white, and Germans in World War II were basically evil. It just wasn't that simple.
I thought for a long time whether I should take part in the discussion, because it's actually only about a game. Obviously, for some people it is about more than that.

 

[DougPhresh]

You know this has generally been a pretty good community over the years, albeit one with a fair bit of Clean Wehrmacht apologia.

Sure, I can see the value Sicherungs units add, and while I disagree, I can see why some may want to see Feldgendarmerie. That inclusion has never extended to entertaining the idea that they were "just like" Commonwealth Provost Wing troops or American MPs. They weren't, and anyone who can open a book can see why.

I do not have a single kind word to say about the Waffen SS historically, but this is a wargame and they were unmistakably a major combat force. I can play Battle For Normandy and see why they were such ferocious opponents in the fight for the Carpiquet Airfield. Their massacre of Canadian prisoners there and elsewhere, to say nothing of the countless crimes of the Waffen SS as a whole are outside the scope of the game, and reasonably outside of discussion.

The idea of the Dirlewanger Brigade as "soldiers like any other" is absolutely sickening and reprehensible. There may not have been humanitarians on the Eastern Front, but one side waged an unprovoked genocidal war of extermination - and the other did not.

I don't want to see this thread locked, but I also don't want to read excuses for the war the Germans waged, only to see how BF is choosing to model it. To their credit, they have done a fantastic job balancing sensitivity with historicity and I expect they will do the same here. They are not in the business of morally exculpating mass murderers, just getting the colour of their tanks right, and they do it well.

[DesertFox]

26 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

Let's change the subject.  How bout this........

LOL. What took you so long?

[MOS:96B2P]

32 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

Let's change the subject.  How bout this........

A Schwimmwagen!!!!  Lets see it swim!!

[Bud Backer]

10 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

A Schwimmwagen!!!!  Lets see it swim!!

Better skinny-dip soon before the paint chars....

[Hadwin73]

Of course the soldiers of the Dirlewanger Brigade were "not soldiers like others". But the majority of the nearly 1 million members of the Waffen-SS were already. It is not without reason that the Waffen-SS was classified as a "non-criminal organization" in the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial. This does not mean that members of the Waffen-SS did not commit crimes. Of course these crimes did exist. The war in the east was not unprovoked, the Soviet Union wanted the war against Germany as Hitler wanted the war against the Soviet Union, only Stalin wanted the war 2 years later. Which of course in no way excuses the crimes of Sonderkommandos against Jews.
The soldiers of the Canadian The Loyal Edmonton Regiment were brave soldiers, but this did not prevent them from murdering German prisoners of war in Sicily in 1943. Is that why the whole regiment is criminal? No, it is not, only the perpetrators are criminals!
And with that I want to close the political discussion for me as well. I hope Fire and Rubble appears soon, I am looking forward to a great game.

 

[MOS:96B2P]

1 minute ago, Bud Backer said:

Better skinny-dip soon before the paint chars....

They look better in their original (1941?) paint job of panzer grey instead of charcoal grey.......................   

[Erwin]

6 minutes ago, Hadwin73 said:

The war in the east was not unprovoked, the Soviet Union wanted the war against Germany...

 

7 minutes ago, Hadwin73 said:

Canadian The Loyal Edmonton Regiment were brave soldiers, but this did not prevent them from murdering German prisoners of war in Sicily in 1943

 

7 minutes ago, Hadwin73 said:

And with that I want to close the political discussion...

LOL

[DMS]

1 minute ago, Hadwin73 said:

The war in the east was not unprovoked, the Soviet Union wanted the war against Germany as Hitler wanted the war against the Soviet Union, only Stalin wanted the war 2 years later.

 

48 minutes ago, Hadwin73 said:

Besides, not only the skull units in the Siedlce area were "not the nicest", but also the Red Army units were not without. They not only committed serious war crimes against Germans, but also against Poles, Romanians, Finns...

Nice example of folk history. But why not to post this on forum.axishistory.com? You would find qualified answers there. Why to post this doubtful statements on wargame forum?

[AlexUK]

1 hour ago, BFCElvis said:

Let's change the subject.  How bout this........

 

 

Nice shot

[Anonymous_Jonze]

1 hour ago, AlexUK said:

Nice shot

Oh hey its some sort of kubelwagen cousin : )

[JM Stuff]

2 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

Let's change the subject.  How bout this........

 

 

No no, continue to talk about politics and real stories...but give us sometimes another vehicles present in F&R to change the subject !

[Mord]

Drop the B***S*** arguing and enjoy the picture.

Where's @kohlenklau he's only been pining for the friggin' thing for 9 years.

He finally wore the boys down.

 

Mord.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Mord

[danfrodo]

for me this falls under the "asking to receive everything is same as asking to receive nothing".  I want the main fighting covered, not every little niche unit that didn't really matter to the outcome in any major campaign/battle.

[Mord]

C'mon. Elvis offered up a subject changer now let's move to the new subject.

 

Mord.