CM:BN Beta AAR/DAR Bois de Baugin US side

[Thomm]

Great screenshots, Elvis!

Best regards,

Thomm

[kulik]

He is playing WEGO, but it's still quite possible to miss things when a lot is going on. I'm not sure that it'd be worth it having the game notifying the player about things - how would the game tell what was important to the player?

Just to clarify - importance is not an absolute, in some situations the battle might hinge on a tiny and seemingly insignificant event. The computer wouldn't know if it was important - the player might not even know if it was important!

Its not like we couldn't live without it but it surely would save you lots of preventable anger. Look at elvis, hes doing pretty well, but from his last clause you would think it may be a thing that could cost him victory.

Killing or loosing a gun, heavy support weapon, vehicle or armor is always worth noticing when not important.

And for me as a realtime player its sometimes really hard to keep track of things. Why is my squad almost wiped up, when there is a Stryker providing overwa...oh burning Stryker.

Having autopause in RT could help to that point that this notification feature may not be even needed thou.

[civdiv]

I posted this in Elvis' AAR thread because some similar questions came up. Figured I should repost here:

I want to draw some attention to this shot in particular:

1. ...This means the guy on the left could be hit from some enemy that would have ZERO chance of hitting the other 3 guys...

2. ...What an enemy can't see they can't shoot at (well, except with blind Area Fire, of course) with small arms fire. This means, again, that exposure to observation is similar to exposure to fire... it's individual.

Steve

Question here Steve, and I hope it does not appear I am needlessly splitting hairs. There is cover and then there is concealment. Now, in the above situation, the enemy sees the guy on the left, but cannot see the other guys. Lets assume the inability to see the other guys is a product of concealment, not cover. So the enemy engages the one guy they see, and the others are in the 'beaten zone'. So even if the enemy cannot see the other guys, can the fire affect them, sort of like area fire?

[Moon]

Question here Steve, and I hope it does not appear I am needlessly splitting hairs. There is cover and then there is concealment. Now, in the above situation, the enemy sees the guy on the left, but cannot see the other guys. Lets assume the inability to see the other guys is a product of concealment, not cover. So the enemy engages the one guy they see, and the others are in the 'beaten zone'. So even if the enemy cannot see the other guys, can the fire affect them, sort of like area fire?

Yes, of course. CMx2 traces (nearly) each bullet and shell. Even a ricochet off a tank or a bullet (we're talking not just large calibar shells but small arms fire, too) can cause damage at the point of secondary impact. Whatever is at the point of impact will be affected, concealed or not.

[Vark]

If a tank rotates its turret to cover a certain arc will the chances to spot increase in that arc? Time and gain photos show tanks advancing in 2-3's with turrets traversed to cover front, right and left arcs.

Talking of playing WEGO and missing things, I cannot count the times I've started a new turn and have gone, "hmm why is my halftrack burning?" Or "what's the mortar tube doing just standing there for, where's the crew" and the all time favourite, when my mind was elsewhere. "Why are there craters surrounding my platoon...oh that's why they are panicking. I tend to now try to go for rapid order phases and not ponder endlessly, like I use to.

[Moon]

If a tank rotates its turret to cover a certain arc will the chances to spot increase in that arc?

Facing does matter in CMx2 (this includes CMSF) and does increase spotting chances. Not only tanks, btw - the same applies to infantry.

[scottie]

Facing does matter in CMx2 (this includes CMSF) and does increase spotting chances. Not only tanks, btw - the same applies to infantry.

yet another tantalising bit of info ..... seems in order to play this game well any prospective user needs to read EVERYTHING posted on this forum

[BFCElvis]

yet another tantalising bit of info ..... seems in order to play this game well any prospective user needs to read EVERYTHING posted on this forum

Yes and no. The as Moon points out facing improves spotting. As does unit morale. And if the unit has binoculars. Those types of things can increase and impede your ability to spot something. But memorizing each factor that comes into play is probably not necessary because all of these factors are things you would expect. Of course you can see better in the direction your looking, of course you can see better with binoculars, of course you can't see as well when you are panicked or broken or crawled up in ball on the ground. It all feels very natural.

[Rocky Balboa]

1512 hrs Back on Hill 154 more hit and run actions. The men are in such bad shape they throw their arms up rather than fight it out.

Full Size

Elvis, Is it easier for you to plot moves in forest by removing the trees as seen in this shot or are you doing this just for the AAR's?

[Vark]

Good, now just a thought, if we have proper arcs to cover will we have the ability to shoot our own troops! Not that I want to (correction, in CM1 I have been tempted to do so!) but I would like a more realistic deployment to be enforced. Too often in CM1 you could get away with sloppy tactics that would result in numerous blue on blue casualties; I know the beaten zone is not simulated but if each round is tracked and if a friendly body gets in the way it should result in an ouch.

[BFCElvis]

Talking of playing WEGO and missing things, I cannot count the times I've started a new turn and have gone, "hmm why is my halftrack burning?" Or "what's the mortar tube doing just standing there for, where's the crew" and the all time favourite, when my mind was elsewhere. "Why are there craters surrounding my platoon...oh that's why they are panicking. I tend to now try to go for rapid order phases and not ponder endlessly, like I use to.

That is pretty normal for me too. But with this I have been rewatching each turn so many times looking for any sign of German units that I blame myself for this. It will be a little while until we see what the result of that oversight means for me. Having notifications pop up sounds like a good idea on the surface but I'm not sure that would have helped me. If I remember correctly Close Combat and Theatre of War both have them and after the first few times of playing each game I ended up ignoring the messages because they became more clutter than helpful. Probably because it wasn't very often I got a notification for something I hadn't already seen. Of course, to each their own. Some people really dig that kind of feedback. Me? There are other things I'd rather have........

[Michael Emrys]

...seems in order to play this game well any prospective user needs to read EVERYTHING posted on this forum.

A good awareness of how tactical combat was fought during WW II would serve just as well. That, after all, is the text the designers are reading from.

Michael

[BFCElvis]

Elvis, Is it easier for you to plot moves in forest by removing the trees as seen in this shot or are you doing this just for the AAR's?

When the trees are that heavy you have to turn them off pretty frequently. I'm really looking for to spending time with the newly introduced half tree effect.

[BFCElvis]

Good, now just a thought, if we have proper arcs to cover will we have the ability to shoot our own troops! Not that I want to (correction, in CM1 I have been tempted to do so!) but I would like a more realistic deployment to be enforced. Too often in CM1 you could get away with sloppy tactics that would result in numerous blue on blue casualties; I know the beaten zone is not simulated but if each round is tracked and if a friendly body gets in the way it should result in an ouch.

Many weapons in the game will cause friendly fire casualties.

[BFCElvis]

I have been debating where and how to mention this since Jons instant message to me woke me up at 3:30am today and decided here is probably the best place.

Jon Sowden is a mensch.

Along with Peng, Greg Lineham has been one of my closest friends for the past 36 years. With Peng he was my best man when I first got married and I was his (actually I was Peng too). His daughter has juvenile diabetes and he began the 9 Great Walks in New Zealand to raise awareness for JD. He is doing this on a shoestring budget because he doesn't want to spend more money doing this than he will raise and has been staying hostels since arriving in NZ at the end of the year. (here's Gregs blog if your curious. It has been pretty funny at times. Especially the Larry David moment with the one legged man from Yorkshire. http://gregskiwiadventures.blogspot.com/)

Yesterday (or is it tomorrow...I get this time thing screwed up every time) Jon took Greg into his home. It is humbling that someone I know so well and someone else I only know from playing war games online with have connected halfway around he world. Jon has taken in my friend without a second thought. A true random act of kindness and generosity.

Jon Sowden is a mensch.

[[hirr]Leto]

Hey Elvis,

Long time reader, first time poster...

Can you tell me if there is any method for determining how close you are to a victory level?

Is there anything that is analagous to the % clock in CMx1? Or is the system for determining your victory points much like goat cheese (you don't know until you bite into it if you like it, and by then it may be too late)?

Thanks for doing this, very informative, and everything looks good... can't wait to try the demo...

P.S., you need more fart jokes. A true CM DAR requires fart jokes.

Cheers!

Leto

[Wrath of Dagon]

That is pretty normal for me too. But with this I have been rewatching each turn so many times looking for any sign of German units that I blame myself for this. It will be a little while until we see what the result of that oversight means for me. Having notifications pop up sounds like a good idea on the surface but I'm not sure that would have helped me. If I remember correctly Close Combat and Theatre of War both have them and after the first few times of playing each game I ended up ignoring the messages because they became more clutter than helpful. Probably because it wasn't very often I got a notification for something I hadn't already seen. Of course, to each their own. Some people really dig that kind of feedback. Me? There are other things I'd rather have........

Being clutter is just a question of which messages are important enough to display. Also "unit destroyed" messages could be highlighted in red. It would certainly save some visual scouring of the map if a message log was available.

[BFCElvis]

Leto;1226915']Hey Elvis,

Long time reader, first time poster...

Can you tell me if there is any method for determining how close you are to a victory level?

Is there anything that is analagous to the % clock in CMx1? Or is the system for determining your victory points much like goat cheese (you don't know until you bite into it if you like it, and by then it may be too late)?

Thanks for doing this, very informative, and everything looks good... can't wait to try the demo...

P.S., you need more fart jokes. A true CM DAR requires fart jokes.

Cheers!

Leto

My man!!

Farts? We have another snow day in NE Pa and probably while you were typing your message I was telling my wife why I wasn't interested in braising cabbage for dinner. I told her that the onlt thing cabbage is good for, beside cole slaw, is for making me fart.

Victory status is not something you get in game updates on. In this scenario I am able to see what each of my victory locations are worth. There are 4 areas of the Villa that are worth 75 points, Hill 154 and Hill 144 are each worth 75 points and the 2 exit locations in the rear are each worth 75 points. There was no mention in the briefing about targets I should be taking out or friendly force preservation but it is usually assumed that some points are awarded and deducted for casualties.

The thing about CMx2 battles though is that I have no idea what his objectives are. He may have a completely different agenda. The scenario could be designed that the Villa gives him 600 points and must be held at all costs or the Villa may be of little point value and the rear exit VLs are where the money is at for him. That part I won't know until after the battle is over. For now, as in real life, all I need to worry about is my mission. Trying to guess if his mission is the same or different will only distract me.

[kulik]

My man!!

Farts? We have another snow day in NE Pa and probably while you were typing your message I was telling my wife why I wasn't interested in braising cabbage for dinner. I told her that the onlt thing cabbage is good for, beside cole slaw, is for making me fart.

Victory status is not something you get in game updates on. In this scenario I am able to see what each of my victory locations are worth. There are 4 areas of the Villa that are worth 75 points, Hill 154 and Hill 144 are each worth 75 points and the 2 exit locations in the rear are each worth 75 points. There was no mention in the briefing about targets I should be taking out or friendly force preservation but it is usually assumed that some points are awarded and deducted for casualties.

The thing about CMx2 battles though is that I have no idea what his objectives are. He may have a completely different agenda. The scenario could be designed that the Villa gives him 600 points and must be held at all costs or the Villa may be of little point value and the rear exit VLs are where the money is at for him. That part I won't know until after the battle is over. For now, as in real life, all I need to worry about is my mission. Trying to guess if his mission is the same or different will only distract me.

So in fact you both could win?

If yours missions objective's don't overlay too much? I mean somebody will probably end with better score, but if his score is high and your score is high thus his and yours objectives are accomplished its a success, no? ...it may be a stupid scenario design, but it is possible, huh?

...actually it may be great for meeting engagements which always ends up as boring sprint to the flag and hold it. If you designate different objectives, yours on his side of map and his on yours, it may get really interesting.

[Moon]

So in fact you both could win?

If you mean if both could achieve their objectives, then yes. As Elvis points out, the players can have entirely different objectives. This was in CMSF already as well. One side may have to hold a certain piece of ground while for the other that particular objective is worthless, and instead it must eliminate a specific unit etc.

But, both sides cannot "win" as such. If both "win", then by definition you have a "draw" (...assuming that the victory points awarded for the objectives are equal).

[BFCElvis]

So in fact you both could win?

If yours missions objective's don't overlay too much? I mean somebody will probably end with better score, but if his score is high and your score is high thus his and yours objectives are accomplished its a success, no? ...it may be a stupid scenario design, but it is possible, huh?

I forget exactly how close the points need to be a draw but as in CMx1 and CMSF it could end up as a draw. And yes, in theory we could each accomplish our objectives and have it be a draw. Draws in any Combat Mission game I've played though are pretty much always neither side completing all objectives.

[Lethaface]

I have been debating where and how to mention this since Jons instant message to me woke me up at 3:30am today and decided here is probably the best place.

Jon Sowden is a mensch.

Along with Peng, Greg Lineham has been one of my closest friends for the past 36 years. With Peng he was my best man when I first got married and I was his (actually I was Peng too). His daughter has juvenile diabetes and he began the 9 Great Walks in New Zealand to raise awareness for JD. He is doing this on a shoestring budget because he doesn't want to spend more money doing this than he will raise and has been staying hostels since arriving in NZ at the end of the year. (here's Gregs blog if your curious. It has been pretty funny at times. Especially the Larry David moment with the one legged man from Yorkshire. http://gregskiwiadventures.blogspot.com/)

Yesterday (or is it tomorrow...I get this time thing screwed up every time) Jon took Greg into his home. It is humbling that someone I know so well and someone else I only know from playing war games online with have connected halfway around he world. Jon has taken in my friend without a second thought. A true random act of kindness and generosity.

Jon Sowden is a mensch.

Cheers for for being a mensch too

[ChrisND]

So in fact you both could win?

If yours missions objective's don't overlay too much? I mean somebody will probably end with better score, but if his score is high and your score is high thus his and yours objectives are accomplished its a success, no? ...it may be a stupid scenario design, but it is possible, huh?

...actually it may be great for meeting engagements which always ends up as boring sprint to the flag and hold it. If you designate different objectives, yours on his side of map and his on yours, it may get really interesting.

It can make for some interesting scenario ideas. For example, you could make a scenario for June 5-6 where small scattered bands of paratroopers are running around causing havoc. They have a bunch of scattered objectives, including things like cutting telephone wires, scout this area, destroy this battery, etc. While the Germans main goal is to just stamp out the paratroopers before they cause too much damage; they get a load of points for destroying the American force so the Americans need to avoid decisive contact when possible.

[futon river crossing]

In the CMSF PBEMs I've played about half the results have been of the WTF! variety. These have all been scenarios that have come with the game too. I've not read anything on here that indicates that CMBN will be any different.

[ChrisND]

In the CMSF PBEMs I've played about half the results have been of the WTF! variety. These have all been scenarios that have come with the game too. I've not read anything on here that indicates that CMBN will be any different.

Unless an objective is designated as secret, the points layout and what exactly is expected of the player will be much clearer. If you have NATO or the NATO demo installed, then the briefing from Die Festung or All Flights are Delayed will give you an idea of what I mean.