CM:BN Beta AAR/DAR Bois de Baugin US side

[Other Means]

Go Jon!

[Bartokomus]

...If you have NATO or the NATO demo installed, then the briefing from Die Festung or All Flights are Delayed will give you an idea of what I mean.

This makes me really happy to hear; I've found the NATO briefings to be of a much higher quality than previous modules, esp. the base and Marine module.

[kulik]

A question:

Gravestones are a flavor objects, right?

Flavor objects provide concealment but no cover, right?

In reality wouldn't such stone plate provide cover?

Thanks

[BFCElvis]

A question:

Gravestones are a flavor objects, right?

Flavor objects provide concealment but no cover, right?

In reality wouldn't such stone plate provide cover?

Thanks

It is the opposite. Gravestones provide cover. Steve miswrote earlier and

Then corrected himself.

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

In the CMSF PBEMs I've played about half the results have been of the WTF! variety. These have all been scenarios that have come with the game too. I've not read anything on here that indicates that CMBN will be any different.

Which is why I keep petitioning, please dear scenario designers, indicate the number of points you assign to which objective in the briefing or map! As far as I can tell the points are indicated on the map Elvis and Jon are playing. This bodes well for CMBN.

[BFCElvis]

;1227089']Which is why I keep petitioning' date=' please dear scenario designers, indicate the number of points you assign to which objective in the briefing or map! As far as I can tell the points are indicated on the map Elvis and Jon are playing. This bodes well for CMBN.[/quote']

The point value for victory locations do appear on the map. I don't know if that is because the scenario designer adds them or because it is a new function of the game. However, there is no indication of how friendly or enemy casualties will effect the score. I have seen great briefings, especially in the NATO campaigns, that lay out in detail what the point values are for all objectives. After watching this battle unfold you can imagine how I felt when I saw things in NATO German campaign scenarios like 300 points for friendly casualties under 15%. I'll give you a hint...I didn't get those points very often.

(P.S. I promise to get the turn for our Afghan game out today)

[futon river crossing]

Stuff the Afgans! Normandy's where it's at baby

[kulik]

It is the opposite. Gravestones provide cover. Steve miswrote earlier and

Then corrected himself.

Real cover or abstract cover?

[stikkypixie]

Real cover or abstract cover?

I believe cover will be like CMSF as in, the path of the bullet is traced and if it intersects the gravestone, building, soldier it will react accordingly. There is some fudge to take into account the less than perfect TacAI of course, but in general this is how it works.

[kulik]

I believe cover will be like CMSF as in, the path of the bullet is traced and if it intersects the gravestone, building, soldier it will react accordingly. There is some fudge to take into account the less than perfect TacAI of course, but in general this is how it works.

So when the tombstones are in rows, and the fire comes perpendicularly on the rows the men hiding behind them are getting a decent cover while if the fire would come parallel to the rows they would only get limited cover?

[stikkypixie]

So when the tombstones are in rows, and the fire comes perpendicularly on the rows the men hiding behind them are getting a decent cover while if the fire would come parallel to the rows they would only get limited cover?

Yes, that is one of the reason BFC went for the 1:1 approach, because these kinds of situations come naturally. In CMx1 it didn't matter where the fire came from (so to speak) because a tombstone tile will also have the same cover value.

[YankeeDog]

So when the tombstones are in rows, and the fire comes perpendicularly on the rows the men hiding behind them are getting a decent cover while if the fire would come parallel to the rows they would only get limited cover?

AIUI, yes.

Unless the basic modeling has changed since CMSF, my understanding of the way cover is modeled is as follows:

(1) Ballistic path of bullet is calculated.

(2) when and if this ballistic path intersects something in the 3D world of the game, such as a terrain feature, a wall, a "flavor object" (such as a tombstone), or whatever, the engine determines whether the bullet is stopped or deflected. The game engine uses exactly the same "3D world" information that is used to generate what the player sees on screen, so size, orientation, composition, etc. all matter. WYSIWYG.

(3) If the ballistic path intersects the 3D model of a soldier, this is a hit, HOWEVER:

(4) In the case of a hit, there may be a "fudge" which turns a hit by the 3D ballistics calculations into a miss, and this "fudge" depends on the type of terrain the soldier is in. This is to abstractly represent very small variations in terrain, small rocks & bushes. etc. that are simply beyond what the engine can specifically render. So a soldier lying in "rocky" terrain is somewhat better off than a soldier lying in the middle of a flat piece of asphalt, even if the graphics to not specifically show little rocks etc. that might intercept a bullet.

[BFCElvis]

1519 hrs

The battle has been on for almost an hour. Now might be a good time to give a little overview/state of the union post.

On my right flank I have been trying to load up as many able bodied men as possible. Even straggles from the doomed Pioneer platoon are joining the assembly. My inability to control Hill 154 and the wall I have hit coming up the center make approach from Hill 144 my best, and maybe only, option. The crowd gathers….

Full size

The area seen from above. I want to advance on the Villa with only units that have C2 and leave the rest to protect the small patch of ground I have taken on Hill 144. It will be hard enough moving over with beaten up platoons, trying it with units out of C2 would be impossible. I am able to gather, along with their HQs, the remains of 1st and 3rd Plt/G Co and (believe it or not) elements of the Pioneer platoon. I plan on moving them all East along the road and in the tree line toward the Northern edge of the Villa.

Along the cart path is a beat up squad, a MG and its ammo bearer. The squad is 3rd Squad/3rd Platoon G Co and since I am moving that platoon toward the town and hope to get the squad back in healthy C2.

Full size

In the center I really have to get men moving forward. The MG back on Hill 148 has been slowing the process but I still need to get up close. There is a small unit in the tree line that I want to move up to the Villa and see if I can get a foothold in one of the buildings.

Full size

On Hill 154 I still feel like knocking out that gun will be the thing that really frees me up to take control of this game. I want to order the infantry I have through the tree line to screen my Sherman and take another chance with getting in close and trying to knock that thing out once and for all.

Full size

[BFCElvis]

Here’s a look at what those guys in the middle are facing. You can kind of make out the foxholes and ? counter showing the location of the MG on Hill 148.

Full size

As I start the clock again for you in this battle I still have men throwing down their guns on Hill 154…

Full size

….even as my first men reach the Villa.

Full size

[LongLeftFlank]

So when the tombstones are in rows, and the fire comes perpendicularly on the rows the men hiding behind them are getting a decent cover while if the fire would come parallel to the rows they would only get limited cover?

Take a closer look at European cemeteries; they look nothing like Arlington (except for the American WWII cemeteries, that is) or even a conventional North American cemetery. They're a jumble of headstones, obelisks and crypts, wedged in and over each other. Alas poor Yorick....

[Lanzfeld]

Wow, that MG in the center seems to be holding up at least 15 men there pinning them in those fields. Very cool and jives with what I have read in the books.

Seems like a nice place to get a tank to wipe out that MG or have all your men "area fire" for a minite.

[BFCElvis]

Wow, that MG in the center seems to be holding up at least 15 men there pinning them in those fields. Very cool and jives with what I have read in the books.

Seems like a nice place to get a tank to wipe out that MG or have all your men "area fire" for a minite.

Yeah. Too bad that AT gun on Hill 154 is still around and affecting my ability to move around more freely

[BFCElvis]

1524 hrs

The time to take the Villa is now. Despite my fears of the AT gun on Hill 154 I decide to move a reserved Sherman forward to try to eliminate the MG42 of Hill 148.It is causing far more problems for me than the AT gun at this point. It’s time to get the assembled men on Hill 144 in motion.

Full size

The Sherman begins its journey across the open field. I’m really hoping this isn’t a bad idea. I realize that I have lost a lot of armor so far. I believe my 4 remaining Shermans will be the deciding factor in this battle so it is a high priority to preserve them until the AT gun is knocked out. But the infantry is having a difficult time advancing to the Villa.

Full size

On Hill 154 the Sherman waits for the infantry to take up positions along to tree line to provide security for me to advance the Sherman on the gun and get rid of it once and for all.

Full size

In the center the hard work of crossing the field to the first building is finally paying off. Once they are close to the building they encounter no further resistance.

Full size

The first arrivals on the western side of the Villa also take their assigned buildings with no resistance. I find the bodies of the MGs crews that had previously occupied the houses but no sign of anyone alive.

Full size

[BFCElvis]

The Sherman on Hill 144 continues to fire into buildings in the Villa as more troops begin their advance. I’m trying to pound and level everything that the Sherman is able to see. My men are in such bad shape that it is important that any help they can get from preliminary pounding from the Sherman may be critical to taking the Villa. These men are in such bad shape they go to ground every time someone breaks wind.

Full size

As the Sherman arrives the 3rd squad/3rd Plt can be seen going to ground and seeking some cover from the shell holes left by my 105mm artillery (maybe it will have done some god after all). The Sherman spots and targets the MG42 on Hill 148. The first shot looks like enough to eliminate the MG as a threat to my advance.

Full size

On Hill 154 the order for the Sherman there to advance on the foxholes has been given. I co-ordinate this with the arrival of the security infantry. Unlike my initial assault on 154 the time is off. The Sherman arrives long before the infantry and the inevitable happens (who didn’t see this coming?). What I believe is a panzerfaust slams into the Sherman.

Full size

The crews quickly abandons the tank and hides in the tall grass……………

Full size

[Rocky Balboa]

Bloody Hell!! I can feel your frustration from here .... Given that hind sight is 20/20, perhaps area targeting those positions with the Sherman's MGs as it advanced might have prevented that faust jockey from sticking his head out of his hole .... bummer ....

[Other Means]

History is full of examples like that Elvis.

[Chops]

These men are in such bad shape they go to ground every time someone breaks wind.

Damn, your men must be on the ground constantly with you as their master. No wonder those good German's are giving you such a whoopin'.

[BFCElvis]

History is full of examples like that Elvis.

And they're buried all over France.

[sand digger]

Your men constantly going to ground Elvis, are they doing this to gain cover or simply because they are green or what? As you know, going to ground is an instictive thing to do but without gaining cover its usually better to keep advancing, particualrly towards cover or to get into a position to attack the enemy.

Could you explain and comment on whether you think their behaviour is approptiate to the circumstances. I have bad memories of CMx1 where constantly going to ground meant it was usually impossible to mount an attack unless everything was in favour of the attacker.

[BFCElvis]

Your men constantly going to ground Elvis, are they doing this to gain cover or simply because they are green or what? As you know, going to ground is an instictive thing to do but without gaining cover its usually better to keep advancing, particualrly towards cover or to get into a position to attack the enemy.

Could you explain and comment on whether you think their behaviour is approptiate to the circumstances. I have bad memories of CMx1 where constantly going to ground meant it was usually impossible to mount an attack unless everything was in favour of the attacker.

Good question. And there is a screen shot in my last postins that may help you seeit.

The units aren't green but after they have paniced and broken enough time the may as well be. They get spooked very quickly and when out of C2 it is even worse. And as you point out it is nearly impossible to mount an attack with men in that condition. I am assuming they will not even be close to the meat of my attack but hopefully I can get them in a position to hold the Villa. The largest portion of my" attack" is made of of support personal and HQ units that had not had their morale shakin earlier in the battle.

When they go to ground they seek the best cover they can. The screen shot I mentioned earlier is the one of the Sherman firing at the MG42 on the hill. 3rd squad/3rd platoon has gone to ground and you can see the men getting as much cover as they can in the shell holes from my 105mm bombardment.