How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[LongLeftFlank]

8 minutes ago, Letter from Prague said:

That would basically be a complete strategic victory for Russia, despite their initially over-the-top goals. It would show they can invade, commit war crimes, steal children to Siberia, threaten food safety of the whole world, and then get away with it with barely any consequences.

I wonder if that can be prevented with West being "oh we have to make sure not humiliate / not escalate / not send anything powerful".

At least it seems the latest Ukraine's crowdsourcing attempts are working and people of Reddit's /r/noncredibledefense joke forum are having fun with it, while supporting a good thing.

Yup, which is why it is so important that the Ukrainian army attack and defeat (destroy/rout) a Russian army on at least one front.

Progressive nibbling, even if it eventually frees Kherson and perhaps even Izium, is simply playing Russia's (new) game at this point. Permanent loss of the land bridge makes Russia master of the Black Sea and creates a long front within range of major Ukrainian population centers and allows them to reinvade in the future.

Nobody is going to invest in chip fabs or car plants in Dnepro or Odessa, within MLRS range.  Ukraine will again be Okrajina, an armed no-mans land, living in permanent twilight. It will be a very sad end to the war.

[Aragorn2002]

26 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Yup, which is why it is so important that the Ukrainian army attack and defeat (destroy/rout) a Russian army on at least one front.

Progressive nibbling, even if it eventually frees Kherson and perhaps even Izium, is simply playing Russia's (new) game at this point. Permanent loss of the land bridge makes Russia master of the Black Sea and creates a long front within range of major Ukrainian population centers and allows them to reinvade in the future.

Nobody is going to invest in chip fabs or car plants in Dnepro or Odessa, within MLRS range.  Ukraine will again be Okrajina, an armed no-mans land, living in permanent twilight. It will be a very sad end to the war.

We need more patience. The situation is not bad at all. The implementation of the delivered weapon systems need time and will have more and more impact. More is in the pipeline.

Time is on the side of Ukraine, not Russia. Against the autumn the Ukrainian army will be in a better shape than the Russian army. Putin may be pretending to laugh about the Western sanctions,  but I'm convinced he's bluffing. He knows it will destroy the Russian economy. 

So all we need is patience. And support the Ukrainians as much as we possibly can. Becoming a candidate for the EU is not just symbolic. It means Europe and the US will go all the way. Zelensky knows that, the Ukrainian people know that and they will fight the fiercer for it.

Ukraine will win and be build up again. Proud member of the EU and NATO, as it deserves. Putin will fall and with him the whole rotten country.

Patience.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Aragorn2002

[Machor]

A Midnight Express in the making, except the train doesn't come this time:

[As I served in the Turkish Gendarmerie, I can tell that NCOs turned a blind eye on foreigners caught with pot back during my service - Not business advice!]

Russia sentences US teacher to 14 years for cannabis smuggling

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61849579

"A Russian court has sentenced a former US diplomat to 14 years in prison for "large-scale" cannabis smuggling.

Marc Fogel had previously worked at the US embassy in Moscow, but was employed as an English teacher in the city at the time of his arrest.

Fogel was sentenced in the same jurisdiction that is hearing a marijuana-related case against US basketball star Brittney Griner.

Cannabis is legal in many parts of the US, but remains illegal in Russia.

"The American citizen Fogel has been found guilty," a court in the Moscow suburb of Khimki said in a statement.

The news release said that the English teacher had committed "large-scale drugs smuggling" in addition to "large-scale illegal storage of drugs without a commercial purpose".

Fogel, who is in his 60s, had around 17g (0.6oz) of cannabis in his luggage when he was caught on 15 August 2021 at Sheremetyevo airport, he told lawyers.

Local authorities have not commented on the amount of drugs Fogel was carrying, but Russian law defines a "large amount" of marijuana to be at least 100g.

Fogel said a doctor had prescribed the drug for medical reasons after he had spinal surgery, and that he was not aware medical marijuana was illegal in Russia.

He pleaded guilty to smuggling, storing, transporting, manufacturing and processing narcotic drugs, according to Russia's Interfax news agency, and was sentenced to serve his prison term at a maximum security penal colony."

[LongLeftFlank]

27 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

We need more patience. The situation is not bad at all. The implementation of the delivered weapon systems need time and will have more and more impact. More is in the pipeline.

Time is on the side of Ukraine, not Russia. Against the autumn the Ukrainian army will be in a better shape than the Russian army. Putin may be pretending to laugh about the Western sanctions,  but I'm convinced he's bluffing. He knows it will destroy the Russian economy. 

So all we need is patience. And support the Ukrainians as much as we possibly can. Becoming a candidate for the EU is not just symbolic. It means Europe and the US will go all the way. Zelensky knows that, the Ukrainian people know that and they will fight the fiercer for it.

Ukraine will win and be build up again. Proud member of the EU and NATO, as it deserves. Putin will fall and with him the whole rotten country.

Patience.

I truly hope you're right, but I fear I am.

Absent an undeniable battlefield defeat, I believe the 'cursed capacity for suffering' persists well past the fall. Galeev's 'North Korea' scenario, to me, is baked in. 

Its 2-5 year consequences for Russia will likely be catastrophic and civilisational. But that is cold comfort to Ukraine, which will also lose those years, and a generation permanently scarred, or forced abroad to eke out a living, or normalcy for its own children.

[Grigb]

Interesting RU comment about rear echelon of enhanced LDNR Vostok battalion comparing to regular RU forces 

Quote

 

The East [batalion] has its own rear echelon special forces, without which the life of the battalion would resemble life in an ordinary part of the active army of the Russian Federation at the first stage of the war. I'll tell you a little now how everything works...

Super foreman Vitya Morda, immediately conducts a rear reconnaissance of the front edge. Where to remove the wheel from the damaged car, where is the water, where to put the cable to give the guys light and much more. Once the Skif [commander Khodakovsky] set the task to assist the Russian army mortar men in settling in and feeding. They were just surprised by the speed of solving issues. After a few hours, they were living in a comfortable place, not cars, as before. They ate normal food, not dry rations and eat everything drinking captured Pepsi from stormed warehouses.

It seemed to me at the beginning that there were too many drivers in the battalion and those who was messing around trucks, but then I realized that without so many trucks and those who could repair them, it was impossible to ensure TIMELY logistics of food, BC, wounded, etc. Trucks of the "East" constantly helped adjacent units.

Food in the battalion is the subject of a separate complimentary story. Moreover, they sometimes deliver it directly to a temporary control point, and the adjacent people, eating meat, always say in surprise: "What a hell of a party you have here!..".

 

[chuckdyke]

14 minutes ago, Machor said:

Fogel said a doctor had prescribed the drug for medical reasons

You must make statements like that when you enter a country by bringing your scripts. I am not an apologist for Russia,but be mindful of the medications you are on. Also, your airline could give you proper advice. 

[Aragorn2002]

33 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

I truly hope you're right, but I fear I am.

Absent an undeniable battlefield defeat, I believe the 'cursed capacity for suffering' persists well past the fall. Galeev's 'North Korea' scenario, to me, is baked in. 

Its 2-5 year consequences for Russia will likely be catastrophic and civilisational. But that is cold comfort to Ukraine, which will also lose those years, and a generation permanently scarred, or forced abroad to eke out a living, or normalcy for its own children.

Ukrainians are fighting and praying for their freedom for centuries. They know what suffering is. It's a tragedy, I agree, but that has been most of their history. They have something worth fighting for. The alternative is endless misery and terror. I know what I would chose. But I see your point and it's all the more reason to help as much as we can.

I expect EU/NATO will announce a second round of arms deliveries, sanctions and other aid in a couple of days. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Aragorn2002

[Grigb]

2 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Its 2-5 year consequences for Russia will likely be catastrophic and civilisational. But that is cold comfort to Ukraine, which will also lose those years, and a generation permanently scarred, or forced abroad to eke out a living, or normalcy for its own children.

That is why it is really scary scenario - In RU imagination  they are fighting against Russia destruction. And it does not matter for them whether Russia is destroyed military or economically. Catastrophic development will be seen as The Plan of Evil West to Destroy Glorius Russia.

So, they will press the red button sooner or later - And we, as a victim of aggression, we, as martyrs, will go to heaven, and they will simply die, because they will not even have time to repent. Putin October 18, 2018 

[kraze]

Empires either expand or they die. So he isn't wrong. When previous russian empire failed to expand by losing war of occupation in Afghanistan - it was soon no more.

 

[Grigb]

And another rant - Murz reaction to RU notion of UKR imminent defeat. 

[QUOTE]

Quote

1. The APU lost from a third to half of its military equipment.

The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation have lost most of the modern modifications of the T-72/90 and most of the BMP-3 fleet since the beginning of the SVO. More than a month ago, the crossing near Belogorovka showed not only the monstrous situation with the incompetence of the command in some places, but also that the Russian Armed Forces are already fighting with the second or third sets of equipment, which consist of the same BMP-1, which the Ukrainian army is now receiving from Eastern European allies. Moreover, the APU has chances to get more modern equipment in the near future to make up for losses, but the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the Corps of the LPR NM have no chance to replenish at the expense of modern products of our military–industrial complex - the military-industrial complex simply does not produce as much as it needs to be replenished, and it will not produce as much for a long time.

Therefore, the T-62 and BMP-1 are coming to the front from storage, and, for example, the radio navigation equipment on this technique is either rotted, or is missing, or is represented by R-123 tube radios, while the APU have a technology for installing digital Motorola and military-standard GPS receivers in armored vehicles.
For understanding, if there is now one fully combat–ready, combat-ready tank company out of three or four required by the state in one of the tank battalions of the LPR or DPR NM, then this is a record and a reason for pride. Moreover, most of the combat-ready vehicles are captured Ukrainian T-64s, because they are captured in a more tolerable technical condition than the own T-64s of the people's millionaires.

Quote

2. On a number of sectors of the front, Ukrainian units are already working in the fire brigade mode.

The same “fire brigades” are advancing from our side in these areas, assembled from the remnants of the units of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the NM Republics that have still retained combat capability.

Quote

3. The personnel support of the Armed Forces of Ukraine has assumed the character of a catastrophe:
- professional experienced military are knocked out by the same ~15-40%.

In the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the NM Republics, the situation with personnel, complicated by the mass of Russian refuseniks, is much worse.

Quote

- reservists and TD need long-term training.

What nonsense! How UKR came up with bull**** to teach someone… In our country, the mobilized are immediately thrown to the front. THAT'S HOW IT'S MEANT TO BE!
And, of course, there is no mechanism for the constant training of mass combat-ready reserves.
It has not been created, it is not being created and it is not known when this bright idea will come to the minds of the leadership.

Quote

- the flow of foreign mercenaries is decreasing. We will hang this scum:)

Like Tyra, right? [UKR said they recently exchanged female civilian volunteer paramedic captured in Mariupol, accused by RU in war crimes]

By the way, our propagandists accused her of murdering a married couple with the aim of seizing children to escape from Mariupol [RU accused he in killing mother and kidnaping kids to pose as their mother]. That is, here is a direct visual war crime, for which it is supposed to be hanged. Still what? Or were they lying to us, or is it more important to exchange the son of our generals than to punish the murderer of civilians caught red-handed? Crippled separ[tist]s, who were lucky to survive in Mariupol, will appreciate this approach, I believe.

Quote

4. The supply of foreign weapons is insufficient.
5. Without the restoration of the military industry, Lend-Lease is useless.

We also have this problem. How to “increase the production of UAVs" in conditions when all the optics for them came under even more severe sanctions pressure? No way. Similarly, the mass of positions in other industries.

The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, allegedly equipped with the most modern encrypted military radio complexes “Azart”, 250,000 rubles from the budget for one walkie-talkie, use Chinese radio stations “Baofeng” in combat operations, easily listened to by the enemy (2,500 rubles for a walkie-talkie).

Volunteers supply the army with optics, electronics, communications, thermal imagers and night sights.
In the units of reservists for three months of the war, the supply of even the most elementary things like the most primitive means of front-line medicine has not been established, not to mention the fact that reservists are fighting without normal means of individual armor protection.

Quote

6. We are waiting for the Russian offensive.

Continue to Wait.
[UNQUOTE]

[akd]

T-62s at front in Luhansk:

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by akd

[akd]

3 minutes ago, Grigb said:

More than a month ago, the crossing near Belogorovka showed not only the monstrous situation with the incompetence of the command in some places, but also that the Russian Armed Forces are already fighting with the second or third sets of equipment, which consist of the same BMP-1, which the Ukrainian army is now receiving from Eastern European allies

This is incorrect. The units involved were using their issued equipment, not replacements pulled from storage.  They were just poorly-equipped.

Edited June 18, 2022 by akd

[Grigb]

Just now, akd said:

This is incorrect. The units involved were using their issued equipment, not replacements pulled from storage.  They were just poorly-equipped.

Under normal circumstances RU command would keep these guys behind and use instead more capable units with better vehicles. BMP-1 considered old crap (due to the gun). The mere fact of their appearance at the front line is bad (for RU).

[Haiduk]

About training of LPR conscripts:

 

Translation:

On Luhansk direction so-called "reservists" and volunteers are trained during 4-6 days. They practice shooting with AK, SVD, RPK and AGS. But how! Without zeroing the same AK on 100 m range! Radios - are new R159, produced in 1985 [likely means new, not-used radios of Soviet times from storages]. No any words about cohering of units. But before sending to frontline they have solemn prayer service. As a result, on of "barses" [joking name of conscript battalions derived from "BAtalion of ReServists"], even not engaging, lost diring the march 3 KIA and 8 WIA because of IEDs explosions. And since a week was disbanded because of 15% irretrivible losses and the same number of refuseniks, incuding their commander.

We were different. Several days they have been gazered a group of mobilized and volunteers in HQ company [probably of regimnet]. All this time all combat training there was bulkhead of rotten potatoes. Then we were dressed, giving out, what was in storages and not in size [in UKR army we often have the same problem, so soldiers or their families often buy own uniform in size like reserve]. Then we were moved to Rubizhne. There novices spent 2-3 days in the rear on chores and night duties as "watchers". Then all were sent to 1st and 2nd lines - to the front. Concerning the firing pravtices, starshyna said us: "checj your rifles and shoot inside the yard on thst 9-storey house. We three went out and shot per a magazine each. Through five minutes on positions of our neigbours started a coomotion - they tought enemy diversion group sneak here and there is a battle in the rear"    

[Haiduk]

26 minutes ago, Grigb said:

Under normal circumstances RU command would keep these guys behind and use instead more capable units with better vehicles. BMP-1 considered old crap (due to the gun). The mere fact of their appearance at the front line is bad (for RU).

No, just most part of Lyman and Izium groups are units of Eastern military district, which have enough old equipment. The same 35th brigade or 5th tank brigade, equpiiped with BMP-1 participated in offensive on Kyiv in initial phase of war

[Ultradave]

3 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

I may not be being clear, sorry, but nobody seriously disputes the political role of the VDV in supporting the internal Russian power structure (a legacy of the USSR). They definitely aren't the only formation tasked with preventing/countering coups (Taman Guards, MVD, OMON and now Rosvgardia, not to mention Kadryov's boys who are Putin's personal vassals), but they are part of the complex.

Not unique to Russia either; the US 82nd Airborne has special internal duties as well.

This is not a valid comparison

Dave

[Battlefront.com]

21 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

No, just most part of Lyman and Izium groups are units of Eastern military district, which have enough old equipment. The same 35th brigade or 5th tank brigade, equpiiped with BMP-1 participated in offensive on Kyiv in initial phase of war

I think what Grigb meant was that the entire unit would, normally, not be used as a "shock troop".  In standard military thinking, this is a 2nd or 3rd line unit, not a 1st line unit.  Therefore, it was using it's standard equipment for a role that it wasn't intended for. This does speak to the desperate manpower shortages of the Russian armed forces because otherwise a 1st line unit would have been used at cross the river.

As for the use of such units in the initial offensive, especially in the Kyiv sector, this *also* indicates desperate shortages of 1st line units even before the war began.  This is something that's already been covered in great detail here and elsewhere.  Very simply put, Russia didn't have the manpower in its standing armed forces to invade Ukraine at all, even including 2nd and 3rd rate unit.  Therefore it wasn't able to "be picky" about what it used for the invasion.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

You guys know how I love bridge crossings, you also know I like reading ISW's reporting.  June 16th's ISW report combined my two interests:

Quote

Geolocated footage showed that Ukrainian Special Operation Forces destroyed a Russian pontoon bridge near Bilohorivka (approximately 13km south of Kreminna) on June 16. Russian forces previously suffered significant losses during a failed river crossing attempt near Bilohorivka in early May.

So I'm thinking... WTF?1?  They tried to cross in the same spot as before, even with all that debris?  Could the Russians really be that stupid?   So I checked out ISW's source:

And here we see a rare instance of ISW making a really bad call in how they either interpreted this information or how they presented it.  The presentation makes it appear that Russia attempted a *NEW* bridge and Ukraine destroyed it using Special Forces.  This is not correct.

What this video shows is Ukrainian Special Forces blowing up the remains of the previous bridge pieces to ensure that Russia couldn't ever use them again.  For example, if Ukraine withdraws from the area the Russians could, safely, pull the pontoon sections from the river, repair them, and use them somewhere else.  Therefore, spending the time blowing them up is not a bad idea.  Could also be a good live training exercise.

Steve

[The_MonkeyKing]

Very alarming figures coming out of Ukrainian military(notice, this is full attention from all sources):

 

[Battlefront.com]

3 hours ago, Letter from Prague said:

That would basically be a complete strategic victory for Russia, despite their initially over-the-top goals. It would show they can invade, commit war crimes, steal children to Siberia, threaten food safety of the whole world, and then get away with it with barely any consequences.

The thing to keep in mind is that Russia's actions are having tangible long term consequences for Russia right now as we sit and discuss this.  But as they are long term consequences, they won't show up immediately.  It is in the definition of "long term consequence"

What sorts of things am I talking about?  Russia, as a country, was on a downward slope on pretty much every single indicator you can point a finger at.  Demographics, health, wages, opportunity, individual liberties, economic opportunities, pensions, faith in government, etc.  All of these things were already in obvious decline.  Not only obvious to us in the West, but to the average Russian.  Yes, they voluntarily put up with their lives getting worse, however even the historically complacent Russian people have a breaking point.  We don't know what that point is, but Russian history shows wars tend to be what triggers it.

Now that the Russian economy is largely on its own, everything is going to move in a worse direction much faster than it would have if Russia had not invaded.  Even if Putin's plan for invading Ukraine worked, the sanctions would still be in place (they were enacted within days of the invasion, remember) and therefore the economic downfall would still have accelerated.  The difference is the Russian population would have been happy about a successful war instead of unhappy about how badly this one is going.  The worse the war goes for Russia, the more Russians will be dissatisfied with their political leadership.  This gets added to the long standing social and economic problems, and that is not historically good for the leadership of the Russian state.

What I'm saying here is that even if the war ends tomorrow with Ukraine surrendering unconditionally, it will not reverse the downward progress of the Russian government under Putin because sanctions and isolation will not go away.  Therefore, the war has consequences and those consequences might be catastrophic for Russia.

Would it be nicer to see the war end tomorrow with a total defeat of Russia, Ukrainian citizens returned to their homes, and Putin and his henchmen booked on a one way flight to The Hague?  Absolutely, but the fact that won't happen doesn't mean Russia is getting away with its criminal activities without consequences.

 

Here is a good analogy.  A successful bank robber has hit many banks over a 20 year timeframe.  He's killed people in the process.  He's even been arrested a few times, but always managed to escape justice.  Then one day he robs the wrong bank and finds himself in an armed conflict.  In the process he kills innocent people and takes some hostages.  He somehow manages to escape.  At the time you might think "he got away with it AGAIN!", but you don't notice the trail of blood he left when escaping.  You still think he got away, though, until a few days later he turns up dead in a rented storage unit because he was seriously wounded and tried to treat himself without the skills or supplies to do a proper job.  Is this justice?  No, because he did not have to answer for his crimes.  Did he get away with it?  Well, he died so arguably he did not.

No analogies are perfect, of course, but I think this is good enough to get my point across that it is too soon to say if Russia will get away with this or not.  I don't think it will.

3 hours ago, Letter from Prague said:

I wonder if that can be prevented with West being "oh we have to make sure not humiliate / not escalate / not send anything powerful".

It already is.  Militarily Ukraine would have collapsed months ago without Western aid.  I don't think it would have stopped fighting, but we'd be looking at more-or-less irregular warfare.  Instead, Russia has suffered massive casualties and had a net loss of occupied territory.  Russia has lost almost all of its offensive capabilities, therefore it has lost almost all of its ability to control how this war ends.  Western aid and Ukrainian resolve has already defeated the Russian armed forces.  More Western aid can hurry up the end of the war in the most favorable way for Ukraine.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

5 minutes ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Very alarming figures coming out of Ukrainian military(notice, this is full attention from all sources):

Yup, and already discussed   It seems this is part of a coordinated Ukrainian PR offensive to hurry up Western aid (generally) and to get heavy equipment (specifically).  The figures are likely truthful, but not necessarily in context.

Steve

[LongLeftFlank]

1 hour ago, Ultradave said:

This is not a valid comparison

Dave

Fair enough, and no offence was intended.

Enforcing the schools desegregation of 1956 (where the Arkansas NatGuard was not reliable, and Eisenhower knew it) was truly important and honourable work. 

...And while I am far from being in the Woke category, or a fan of social engineering in general, in spite of the grandstanding and opportunism, I also try to look at it more philosophically as settling the unfinished business of Jim Crow, which ultimately leads to a stronger, more united Republic.

[Ts4EVER]

19 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Enforcing the schools desegregation of 1956 (where the Arkansas NatGuard was not reliable, and Eisenhower knew it) was truly important and honourable work. 

 

Too bad the schools have largely resegregated themselves, but yeah, nice try.

[Battlefront.com]

Back to the pondering of the "why Putin did this war now" question.

Let's put aside the possibility that the timing was mostly due to Putin's health and/or sense of mortality.  I personally think this was a huge factor in all of this, perhaps THE deciding factor, but even without it I think this war was going to happen anyway.  Therefore, it's not wrong to put it aside and look at the rest of the picture because it is still relevant.

Putin wanted Ukraine gone as an independent nation state for a bunch of reasons which boil down into two basic concepts:

1. not setting a good example for the peoples that Russia dominates (domestic and foreign) because they are making a better life for themselves without Russia.  In fact, in spite of Russia.
2. domestic Russian situation isn't good and it's getting worse.  Taking over Crimea helped boost Putin's regime, so another success in Ukraine might do the same

I believe Belarus might have been the final element that got Putin to change his mind from a possible limited Donbas offensive (i.e. incremental war) to a regime change plan (i.e. maximalist war).  But war against Ukraine in some form was almost certainly going to happen around this time no matter what.

Belarus posed a serious problem for Russia's power structure.  If it drifted away, as Ukraine already had, then Russia's attempts to militarily dominate/threaten eastern Europe would be gone forever.  Its base in Kaliningrad would also be much harder to maintain.  It would also send a bad signal to other corrupt ex-Soviet states that Russia relies upon as part of its pseudo-empire.  And he is not wrong, as Kazakhstan proved in January 2022.

In Putin's mind, I am sure, he figured that things were getting out of hand and this required Ukraine to be dealt with.  Ukraine's politics could never be influenced again to the extent Russia needed, so it had to be something external. He tried to push Minsk 2 angle and Ukraine (backed by the West firmly) firmly rejected that, so he was really left with only the military option.

Once Belarus became a defacto extension of Russian territory in 2021, the ability to launch a regime change invasion of Ukraine became logistically easier to do. 

I am sure Belarus made it clear they would not participate in the initial invasion, which Putin probably agreed to because he didn't think they would be needed.  Later, when the war decidedly didn't go Putin's way, it seems equally clear that Russia pressured Belarus to attack.  However, it seems Putin was convinced that if he forced the issue then there might be a revolt by the Belarus armed forces and/or a civilian uprising.  Russia could not handle that and the war in Ukraine, so Putin backed down.

And so there we have it.  War was going to happen anyway, sooner probably than later, but the problems in Belarus both accelerated the "need" for war in Ukraine as well as providing a base to make the invasion more viable.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

2 minutes ago, Ts4EVER said:

Too bad the schools have largely resegregated themselves, but yeah, nice try.

And the point and relevance of this comment is.... what exactly?  We just had a brush with a fight over politics for the first time in several hundred pages, so don't try getting another one started.  Vacations await those who do.

Steve