Can't clear the forest / FR The Battle of Tukums (german side)

[Hafer]

Hi,

i got really big problems clearing the forest in the west. It tried many tactics:

1. Used small recon teams, then advanced with 2 Platoons (with/without tank support)
2. Soften the enemy with long barrage 105mm arty
3. Tried entering with big smoke screen (arty)
4. Used different movment tactics hunt, slow,...
5. Concentrated firepower on small spots

But everytime there are some badass russians blowing out whole squads. It gets a bit frustrating..

Did someone tried this mission (first of the campaign)?

Cheers
Hafer

[Vacillator]

Erm, I started but RL interfered.  Interested in your findings (and those of others).

[Chibot Mk IX]

Is this the first mission of Campaign FR Battle of Tukums?   I guess I will play this campaign sometime next year after I finish all the unfinished stock CMRT campaigns. 

But looking at the map, maybe it is better to leave the forest alone, do not occupy it. After your step 1 and 2, advance through the center dirt road. Drop couple PzG squad around that farmhouse to over-watch the forest  , keep them 200m away from the forest and leave one or two panzers to protect PzG. 

Of course no plan survives first contact, I could be decimated by PAKs crossfire........

 

 

Guess the biggest challenge is to fight through the only crossing point on the map. 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Chibot Mk IX

[Erwin]

Generally, if one has to move thru enemy occupied forests, one has to take time moving thru.  PAUSE for a minute or two and locate sound contacts, then AREA FIRE at em.  

[DMS]

German squads have a lot of MG ammo. You can just shoot forward randomly. MG team shoots, rifle team advances. Keep neighbour squads no more than 10-20 m away.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Bil touches on it somewhat in his blog: https://battledrill.blogspot.com/2019/05/battle-technique-using-listening-halts.html

Forests are best avoided if possible, if there are enemy in them that may cause issues they will have to be at the edges so area fire with tanks or arty the snot out of them.

MMM

[chuckdyke]

*Possible spoiler! I done a quick map recon but once I start playing this campaign I would recon a 2nd crossing point. Approach should always be negotiating terrain accessible by all units. Using the other chokepoint can only be done by brute force.  

[Aragorn2002]

35 minutes ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

Bil touches on it somewhat in his blog: https://battledrill.blogspot.com/2019/05/battle-technique-using-listening-halts.html

Forests are best avoided if possible, if there are enemy in them that may cause issues they will have to be at the edges so area fire with tanks or arty the snot out of them.

MMM

Forest fighting against Soviet PPSh squads, the nightmare of every CM gamer. Can't wait to see how the MP44 equipped Sturmgrenadiere will do against them.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[chuckdyke]

6 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Forest fighting against Soviet PPSh squads, the nightmare of every CM gamer.

It is Lure and Trap stay out of it. Secure roads if there are no alternative routes. The MP44 will lose its advantage at short ranges 30round magazines vs 60 round drum magazines. 

[Bulletpoint]

3 hours ago, DMS said:

German squads have a lot of MG ammo. You can just shoot forward randomly.

You often can't really do that though, because of the way the game strictly limits the places you can put a target order.

And because you can't shoot straight into the forest but have to shoot at a specific square, which at close range means mostly shooting into the ground.

While forest fighting is also a pain in real life, the attacker is even more constrained in the game.

[Chibot Mk IX]

Yes, LGM team Area Fire should help if you have to take those woods. But in my humble opinion, the west side forest can be bypassed . no need to occupy it. 

3 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Forest fighting against Soviet PPSh squads, the nightmare of every CM gamer. Can't wait to see how the MP44 equipped Sturmgrenadiere will do against them.

it depends on who is the attacker who is the defender, and who has the favors of fortune.   I was in the campaign "Regaining The Initiative (Rokossovkys_Impasse)" , in one of the engagement I know there is a German SMG team /  Fusilier team in front of me. So I sent a full Soviet rifle plt to hunt them. Their MP40s took out 13 soviets before be put down by a brave Mosin-Nagant rifleman  

"

 

 

 

[Chibot Mk IX]

I found some discussion in my collection about how to fight PPSH Soviets in woods

https://community.battlefront.com/topic/114099-bil-v-c3k-aar-–-germans-v-smgs-in-woods/

https://community.battlefront.com/topic/126518-then-we-will-fight-in-the-shade/?tab=comments#comment-1741559

 Hope they help

 

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

You often can't really do that though, because of the way the game strictly limits the places you can put a target order.

And because you can't shoot straight into the forest but have to shoot at a specific square, which at close range means mostly shooting into the ground.

While forest fighting is also a pain in real life, the attacker is even more constrained in the game.

I could be wrong, but

1, the area fire will cause suppression effect in adjacent tiles 

2, in one of the link above, there is one post  saying " This doesn't mean you need LOS to the target either. If a target is 100 to 120m away and your LOS is well short of this you still have excellent results simply shooting in that direction even if you are 70m short of your actual target. Your hail of bullets travel a lot further than you eyes can see."       I concur that. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Chibot Mk IX

[Bulletpoint]

2 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

I could be wrong, but

1, the area fire will cause suppression effect in adjacent tiles 

Yes, but your own troops will often also be in those adjacent tiles.

3 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

2, in one of the link above, there is one post  saying " This doesn't mean you need LOS to the target either. If a target is 100 to 120m away and your LOS is well short of this you still have excellent results simply shooting in that direction even if you are 70m short of your actual target. Your hail of bullets travel a lot further than you eyes can see."       I concur that. 

This only works if you are able to shoot from a distance. Usually it's not possible inside the forest.

The key to understanding this is to imagine the spread of the fire as a cone extending from the shooter. The centre of the cone is aiming at the ground in the middle of the targeted square.

At close distances, there's almost no spread yet, so bullets mostly straight into the ground. At longer distances, a good amount of bullets either go short (and hit the ground closer to the shooter) or go long (and miss the centre of the square and continue above ground for some distance). This effect is what you can use to suppress squares you can't target directly.

[Bulletpoint]

There's also another effect that makes suppression less useful inside a forest. Suppression effects diminish with distance. A fully suppressed team will often start to shoot back (at reduced accuracy) once the enemy closes further than about 100m. Depending on troop quality, leadership, morale, C2, etc. But inside a forest, troops will usually always fire when they spot something, and be accurate enough, because the range is so short.

[Ithikial_AU]

<-- Designer. Not giving anything away.

1) Going to have to use those tanks in not the best of conditions.

2) You have lots of time.

3) Remember the reserves that will come in.

4) The forces aren't central to the other battles so push them a bit hard.

5) It used to be harder.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

6 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Forest fighting against Soviet PPSh squads, the nightmare of every CM gamer. Can't wait to see how the MP44 equipped Sturmgrenadiere will do against them.

My experience thus far has been that in wooded defense, the MP44 troops will take some casualties due to the sheer output of PPSh troops, but overall they will slaughter the soviets. A nice turnaround from typical forest encounters in RT with any troops but Begleitgrenadiers.

[BornGinger]

Doesn't the German player have naval support in that mission (I saw something about that on Youtube)?  Why not use the naval guns to soften up the Soviet troops in the wood before sending in the infantry?

Edited May 6, 2021 by BornGinger

[Ultradave]

8 hours ago, Ithikial_AU said:

<-- Designer. Not giving anything away.

1) Going to have to use those tanks in not the best of conditions.

2) You have lots of time.

3) Remember the reserves that will come in.

4) The forces aren't central to the other battles so push them a bit hard.

5) It used to be harder.

MUCH harder. We all cried.  

I didn't design it, but I can tell you that using a couple of tanks for fire support to clear the woods really helped. How to do it is up to you. 

Dave

[Hafer]

11 hours ago, Ultradave said:

MUCH harder. We all cried.  

I didn't design it, but I can tell you that using a couple of tanks for fire support to clear the woods really helped. How to do it is up to you. 

Dave

I tried this, too. It works quite good. But it has a huge risk: Losing a tank. That happend to me.

And overall, i'm not feeling good/right using tanks in forests.

Your Platoons to the left are "green" - thats one of the problems.

 

 

[Hafer]

I guess not the most realistic aproach but it works quite well.

[Hafer]

Ok, now i managed to conquer the forest, but.

There are a few nasty russian paks out of range of my squads. The arty support is slow (9min) and my tanks cant spot them.

WHAT A bloody hell!!!

Edited May 7, 2021 by Hafer

[Warts 'n' all]

3 hours ago, Hafer said:

I guess not the most realistic aproach but it works quite well.

It thought that F&R was set in Central Europe, Not Telegraphpoleland.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Warts 'n' all

[Hafer]

Puhh, i`m getting really mad. Tried fighting the enemy about the whole day. No success. The paks are too precice. My soldiers are too weak ("green" experience). I thing i`ll give up in the next turns. How can i neutralize those paks? My tanks are blind idiots. My infantry cannot reach them. My arty is too slow and not precise. 

I'm playing CM round about 25 years now and i`m a f*** noob

[BornGinger]

1 hour ago, Hafer said:

My soldiers are too weak ("green" experience).

Is this Tukums battle connected to the fighting in the Kurland pocket? If it is and you play as the Germans, I thought they already had a whole lot of experience of fighting the Soviets. But maybe there also were some office personal and ground staff from the airports without fighting experience in that battle.

[DerKommissar]

I've been re-trying this mission for 2 weeks now... It's tough, real tough. Haven't gotten past the forest, myself. Maybe today will be different? I think the mission is beautifully made, and it's intended to be a suicide mission. Welcome to the Ostfront.