How US Airborne🪂 would have been used?

[The_MonkeyKing]

Hi,

I was wondering how Us Airborne would have been used in a cold war gone hot scenario like CMCW 1975-1985? (Yes, I am also thinking about modules...)

Where? How? Against what? 

[Megalon Jones]

101st and 82nd were going to the Middle East as part of the RDF/CENTCOM's XVIIIth Corps.  The 173rd Brigade were in Italy as part of AFSOUTH?  If so, they get Yugoslavia and northern Italy. 

[The_MonkeyKing]

hmm, sounds like unlikely locations for a future module to happen. Too bad

[ratdeath]

Cold War - Middle East with new terrain and new forces.

Cold War - Nordic with new terrain, winter and new forces.

Ah, the possibilities

Dreaming!

[Splinty]

1 hour ago, Megalon Jones said:

101st and 82nd were going to the Middle East as part of the RDF/CENTCOM's XVIIIth Corps.  The 173rd Brigade were in Italy as part of AFSOUTH?  If so, they get Yugoslavia and northern Italy. 

Although back then the 173rd was known as SETAF, for Southern European Task Force.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Splinty
Wrong acronym

[Amedeo]

Dang! So, we, Sheridan aficionados, need a module to go back a couple years to see the M551 in line (with the Armored Cavalry). And, for good measure, one should go back to 1976, just to put in the old Soviet heavies (ISU-152, IS-2, IS-3, T-10).

Since a module like this would come up last, I foresee interesting Sheridan vs ISU-152, Leopard 1 vs IS-2M and Chieftain vs T-10M scenarios! 

[Ultradave]

Of course, you could write the "history" of what happens in the BNCW world to be anything you want, within reason. The very general mission was drop in, seize a key airfield/airport somewhere in the world, and hang on until there were enough armor/mech units airlifted in to maintain. Was that realistic? Dunno. Probably depends a lot on where in the world that airfield was. We sure practiced it a lot.

We also trained for the AAAD (Airborne Anti Armor Defense). Which was a fancy way to say - come up with a plausible defense and enough light portable AT weapons to greatly attrit an attacking armored unit. Could be a place in the NATO line, could be a forward deployment to stop a reinforcing unit, while NATO forces counterattack to link up. Now that last one has possibilities for CW. Rush to the aid of the beleaguered paratroopers.  

"We're paratrooper son. We're supposed to be surrounded"

Dave

[Sequoia]

In WW2 Us airborne divisions were used as emergency reinforcements at the beachhead at Salerno and to block the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge. They were almost dropped on Rome as part of a coup. They fought as elite ground troops in Vietnam.  I'm sure others can think of more examples. Our war here would be won or lost in Germany. I would find it most probable most of 82nd would show up for the fight and probably sooner than later.

[MikeyD]

Imagine a spot on a map that it would take heavy US forces four days to get to, heavy Soviet forces three days to get to, and Airborne forces one day to get to.

[Ultradave]

12 minutes ago, Sequoia said:

In WW2 Us airborne divisions were used as emergency reinforcements at the beachhead at Salerno and to block the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge. They were almost dropped on Rome as part of a coup. They fought as elite ground troops in Vietnam.  I'm sure others can think of more examples. Our war here would be won or lost in Germany. I would find it most probable most of 82nd would show up for the fight and probably sooner than later.

Right. Exactly what I described. That's the kind of thing we trained for. Along with of course, intervening in the Middle East, or Central America (rebels in El Salvador, for example), rescuing hostages, evacuating US civilians from some hot spot or potential hot spot (El Salvador again comes to mind in 1981). We pretty much had to be ready for any eventuality, without any notice at all. "Wheels up in 8 hours, come as you are"

Turns out the "intervention" we did in the Middle East was peacekeeping duty in the Sinai following the Camp David Accords. 

Norway was definitely another possibility both for the 101st and 82d, not to mention the 10th MTN and the 9th ID (just covered the XVIII Abn Corps - except for the 24th ID). Norway is a prime location for the use of light infantry, assuming that like most WW3 potential stories, Norway is invaded by the USSR. Just need to provide enough choppers for mobility. And air cover to keep from having them all shot down. 101st has lots. The rest do have a complement of choppers but they'd need to be augmented to move around. That's a bit beyond the scope of CM, however, it could be simulated as lifts arriving at periodic intervals while the LZ is secured, similar to how the paratroopers arrive in Road to Nijmegan campaign in BN. (this applies to wherever they might be deployed - kind of getting ideas for some potential scenarios here while thinking back to real life, but it's going to be a while). 

Dave

[Gkenny]

9 hours ago, Amedeo said:

Dang! So, we, Sheridan aficionados, need a module to go back a couple years to see the M551 in line (with the Armored Cavalry). And, for good measure, one should go back to 1976, just to put in the old Soviet heavies (ISU-152, IS-2, IS-3, T-10).

Since a module like this would come up last, I foresee interesting Sheridan vs ISU-152, Leopard 1 vs IS-2M and Chieftain vs T-10M scenarios! 

Fortunately Sheridans were still in ACAV service in 1979, although they were being phased out. Though I would love to see a US airborne and VDV module, as well as east germany, west germany, and the BAOR to flesh out the german region.

[Ultradave]

We had them in 1/17 Cav. What we need is an animation of a M551 LAPES to bring them into the game. 

Dave

[sburke]

On 4/23/2021 at 2:12 PM, Ultradave said:

Of course, you could write the "history" of what happens in the BNCW world to be anything you want, within reason. The very general mission was drop in, seize a key airfield/airport somewhere in the world, and hang on until there were enough armor/mech units airlifted in to maintain. Was that realistic? Dunno. Probably depends a lot on where in the world that airfield was. We sure practiced it a lot.

We also trained for the AAAD (Airborne Anti Armor Defense). Which was a fancy way to say - come up with a plausible defense and enough light portable AT weapons to greatly attrit an attacking armored unit. Could be a place in the NATO line, could be a forward deployment to stop a reinforcing unit, while NATO forces counterattack to link up. Now that last one has possibilities for CW. Rush to the aid of the beleaguered paratroopers.  

"We're paratrooper son. We're supposed to be surrounded"

Dave

Latakia would have been a major base of operations for Soviet power projection in the Eastern Med.  How about an Airdrop to be supported by units coming in from 6th fleet.. oh wait is there a Marine module?    Be an excuse to delve more into desert region settings.

 

Funny thing that just occurred to me after posting this is I had a cousin who served in the Marines in the late 60s and was posted to the Med.  I still have his old foot locker in my garage.

Edited April 25, 2021 by sburke

[Ultradave]

I did peacekeeping duty in the Sinai after Camp David. Something could be made from that too. We had people rotating there for quite a while.

[LongLeftFlank]

On 4/24/2021 at 5:31 AM, MikeyD said:

Imagine a spot on a map that it would take heavy US forces four days to get to, heavy Soviet forces three days to get to, and Airborne forces one day to get to.

"Well who *is* on our side?"

"600 million screaming Chinamen."

"But last I heard there were a billion screaming Chinamen."

"There were..." (WHOOMPH)

[IICptMillerII]

It's important to remember that both the 101st (not actually an airborne unit) and the 82nd were part of XVIII Airborne Corps, which is a global rapid reaction force. As such, they could have ended up in any number of locations around the world. 

One of the best uses for an airborne unit in this type of war is as a strategic plug, or counter. For example, if the Soviets had attacked through neutral Austria (they fully planned on it) an airborne division could be rapidly deployed in Austria to counter and slow the Soviet advance long enough for heavy forces to be shifted south. Dropping an airborne division in front of a Soviet breakthrough in northern Germany to slow it down is another example of use. 

Airborne operations are not Normandy. Flying into a wall of flak and missiles is a great way to get an entire division destroyed without ever returning a shot in anger. These types of operations would likely land the division well enough away from enemy formations (up to 60km or more depending on the situation on the ground) which would keep the actual airborne forces safe while dropping and allow them to form up and dig in.

Offensively they can be used in many ways as well. As other have noted, airfield seizures, bridges, infrastructure/logistics hubs, as well as landing on top of other strategically important areas and then awaiting relief by attacking heavy forces. 

[Splinty]

4 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

 

Offensively they can be used in many ways as well. As other have noted, airfield seizures, bridges, infrastructure/logistics hubs, as well as landing on top of other strategically important areas and then awaiting relief by attacking heavy forces. 

That right there is also a very good use of the Ranger Battalions.

[IICptMillerII]

1 minute ago, Splinty said:

That right there is also a very good use of the Ranger Battalions.

There's a reason they're airborne qualified!

[Ultradave]

6 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

As such, they could have ended up in any number of locations around the world.

Exactly. We trained for pretty much everything that's being discussed here. Some of that training is not scenario specific- for example, dropping in to secure and airhead while awaiting the arrival of mech units is not hugely different in Austria or somewhere in the Middle East. Different terrain, same overall mission.

Dave

[sburke]

3 hours ago, Ultradave said:

Exactly. We trained for pretty much everything that's being discussed here. Some of that training is not scenario specific- for example, dropping in to secure and airhead while awaiting the arrival of mech units is not hugely different in Austria or somewhere in the Middle East. Different terrain, same overall mission.

Dave

well the airport lounges would have been nicer.    Now if it were today you'd hope for Dubai.

[Ultradave]

36 minutes ago, sburke said:

well the airport lounges would have been nicer.    Now if it were today you'd hope for Dubai.

Yeah, and flying the friendly skies of the MAC is not exactly like Emirates First Class either.  

 

[Vet 0369]

On 4/25/2021 at 2:26 PM, sburke said:

Latakia would have been a major base of operations for Soviet power projection in the Eastern Med.  How about an Airdrop to be supported by units coming in from 6th fleet.. oh wait is there a Marine module?    Be an excuse to delve more into desert region settings.

If the Cold War turned hot in the late 70s or early 80s, I don’t envision many USMC amphibious assaults taking place outside of Norway. The USMC just isn’t large enough. The primary Marine area of operation was defense of Norway. That’s why we trained there starting in 1976. In 2020, the total strength of the USMC was 219,458 Marines. That’s 180,958 Regular Marines and 38,500 Reserve Marines. Those are the numbers allowed by the Congress, who set the manning limits for the U.S. military. To put it all in perspective, of the five largest Marine forces in the world, Russia’s Naval infantry is the largest, followed by the ROK Marines. The USMC is number five in size. Even the Netherlands Korps Mareine (spelling is probably incorrect, but you get the gist) is larger than the USMC. The entire USMC is only about 30,000 larger than the U.S. Army Reserves. People think we’re larger because we do more with fewer.

 

Yea, though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall fear no evil, for I’m the meanest S.O.B. in the valley!

[Los]

A quick point, there were 82d brigade-level deployments to reforger occasionally. If for whatever reason the situation dictated deploying part of the brigade to Europe, then that’s where they would have gone. It’s the definition of having a rapid deployment force.

[LongLeftFlank]

20 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

There's a reason they're airborne qualified!

In Austria, I imagine heavy demolitions work in the Alpine passes. While fighting off VDV and spetsnaz attempts to seize the same.... 

(btw, this little known Jimmy Stewart film set during the 1944 Japanese ICHIGO offensive against the Chengtu B29 bases, features a fairly realistic infantry firefight, conducted at an appropriate tactical range. In 1960 a lot of Hollywood folks still had first hand experience with the real deal)

Edited April 27, 2021 by LongLeftFlank

[Bubba883XL]

I've only just noticed they have'nt included the airborne forces. must have saved them for some module...lol