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WHY has nobody considered attempting Stalingrad?


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What's stopping people from creating this iconic, yet under appreciated battle? I hear so much talk about it, but never anything past Paulus' 6th Army being encircled and eaten alive.

I came across this map while searching for Youtuber TIK's high detail Stalingrad map he had made for himself by a graphic designer.

Sgrd_CE_Map_web-07-07.png

This map is goddamn gigantic. Over 8 feet x 3 feet. What's stopping someone from buying this map and using it to recreate Stalingrad. What are the topography maps like? Abundant? Seems like that's the only missing element. This map is gorgeous.

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I anticipate that folks will become tired of dense urban combat as it is very hard to control or even see one's units in a dense urban environment.    We have several large city maps  available for d/l , but it's notable that very few scenarios have been made for them.  

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4 hours ago, Erwin said:

I anticipate that folks will become tired of dense urban combat as it is very hard to control or even see one's units in a dense urban environment.    We have several large city maps  available for d/l , but it's notable that very few scenarios have been made for them.  

That's the reason why I'm not really looking forward to fighting in the streets of Berlin. I'm playing on the Arnhem city map at the moment and although it's fun, it's also hard to control my units. It does represent the chaos of urban fighting, but it's also difficult to follow.

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@Artkin From several viewpoints it would be insane to go and create a CM map of the ENTIRE city. A huge map like that takes a LONG TIME TO MAKE, long time to load and THEN when units are placed on it? I once did what I thought was a huge CMFI Afrika Mod map of the outer defenses of Tobruk. It crashed. The bug report was sent. The reply said that there is an edge/limit to how many strands of barbed wire the game can handle. I must have found it. I also played benparks Ortona map with several battalions and it had issues. Nothing he did wrong, just pushing the edge, "Don't let your ego write checks, your PC/game engine can't cash!"

Edited by kohlenklau
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10 hours ago, Erwin said:

I anticipate that folks will become tired of dense urban combat as it is very hard to control or even see one's units in a dense urban environment.  

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think the reason is that urban combat is not really the strength of the Combat Mission engine.

 

I agree. I think the game engine isnt really designed for urban combat. And in urban scenarios I always end up swearing at my pc because of strange LOS, LOF and movement behaviours.

Hopefully, it will be improved once we get CM3. Eventually...

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48 minutes ago, t34577685 said:

Although CM has its shortcomings in simulating street fighting, I can't find a better street fighting game on the market that simulates that many elements.

So CM is only choice for me to choose.  Other games just don't meet my needs

Amen to that.

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For a Stalingrad title you shouldn't be thinking huge maps but tiny maps. The battle started out with 230,000 on one side, 187,000 on the other. You couldn't possibly drop entire Divisions onto a CM map and expect individual bullet trajectories to be calculated. Stalingrad battles were house-by-house, street-by-street. My urban war map in Fire and Rubble module is just 352x320m (2 city blocks square). But its a space that's almost impossible to cross, a blood bath.

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On 4/4/2021 at 10:18 PM, Erwin said:

but it's notable that very few scenarios have been made for them.  

I just think CMBN is laggy game and the maps are just too complicated for the older version of the engine. I still think this title is much slower than the others. Maybe because of the vast foliage, or because of small improvements... (CMFB plays like a dream even with many bn's on the map)

19 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

That's the reason why I'm not really looking forward to fighting in the streets of Berlin. I'm playing on the Arnhem city map at the moment and although it's fun, it's also hard to control my units. It does represent the chaos of urban fighting, but it's also difficult to follow.

I can agree. I never play the pure city maps. I would really like to see a master map that incorporates surrounding suburb leading up to the city center. Stalingrad seems to have a lot of these, and the city is narrow. Perfect for CM....

15 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

@Artkin From several viewpoints it would be insane to go and create a CM map of the ENTIRE city. A huge map like that takes a LONG TIME TO MAKE, long time to load and THEN when units are placed on it? I once did what I thought was a huge CMFI Afrika Mod map of the outer defenses of Tobruk. It crashed. The bug report was sent. The reply said that there is an edge/limit to how many strands of barbed wire the game can handle. I must have found it. I also played benparks Ortona map with several battalions and it had issues. Nothing he did wrong, just pushing the edge, "Don't let your ego write checks, your PC/game engine can't cash!"

Lmao that sounds about right. I've thrown a ton of trenches down but never too many wires...

Were you able to load the map in the editor? I wouldn't play a 4x4km map of stalingrad at once, CM dies when houses are added, this is true. However...

10 hours ago, MikeyD said:

For a Stalingrad title you shouldn't be thinking huge maps but tiny maps. The battle started out with 230,000 on one side, 187,000 on the other. You couldn't possibly drop entire Divisions onto a CM map and expect individual bullet trajectories to be calculated. Stalingrad battles were house-by-house, street-by-street. My urban war map in Fire and Rubble module is just 352x320m (2 city blocks square). But its a space that's almost impossible to cross, a blood bath.

I definitely wouldn't be that extreme. But it would be sick to have the map fully laid out in the editor ready to be sliced up.

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14 hours ago, Artkin said:

Lmao that sounds about right. I've thrown a ton of trenches down but never too many wires...

Were you able to load the map in the editor?

It was back in 2016, I made the map in the map editor and it was good. Typical North African terrain I would assume is "big map friendly"...

But then I started to make the scenario and purchased units including fortifications like barbed wire. I was placing them and at some point here is what I entered in the help desk...

Ticket Description: I made a scenario to depict axis assault on the "red line" south of Tobruk. No trees. :D 2km x 2km map with lots and lots and lots of barbed wire. 22 purchases of 10 sections of barbed wire = 220 sections of barbed wire. It did have some modtags to support getting the proper look with some bmp files.

It all seems to play well vs the AI.

But when trying to get a PBEM going with 2 other friends, they experienced crashes.

I edited out the modtags and kept the wire and it still crashed for the opponent.

I finally deleted out the barbed wire and it seems ok now. But we wanted the barbed wire in the scenario.

Modtags running fine in other scenarios.

Did excessive barbed wire cause this crash?

I thought fortifications are not like adding more units but maybe it does tax the system....

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5 hours ago, Dr.Hoopenfaust said:

@Artkin Is that map for sale? If so, could you point me in the right direction. Going through the designers page and Tik's YT page, I can't find any reference to your image you posted.

Cheers

https://ventonuovo.ventonuovo.net/epages/15417.mobile/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15417/Products/S08&Locale=en_US

 

Tik had a 3d artist design a map for him. Unfortunately I believe it is only for him and his battleground stalingrad series

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4 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

It was back in 2016, I made the map in the map editor and it was good. Typical North African terrain I would assume is "big map friendly"...

But then I started to make the scenario and purchased units including fortifications like barbed wire. I was placing them and at some point here is what I entered in the help desk...

Ticket Description: I made a scenario to depict axis assault on the "red line" south of Tobruk. No trees. :D 2km x 2km map with lots and lots and lots of barbed wire. 22 purchases of 10 sections of barbed wire = 220 sections of barbed wire. It did have some modtags to support getting the proper look with some bmp files.

It all seems to play well vs the AI.

But when trying to get a PBEM going with 2 other friends, they experienced crashes.

I edited out the modtags and kept the wire and it still crashed for the opponent.

I finally deleted out the barbed wire and it seems ok now. But we wanted the barbed wire in the scenario.

Modtags running fine in other scenarios.

Did excessive barbed wire cause this crash?

I thought fortifications are not like adding more units but maybe it does tax the system....

It ran fine on your system but not theirs?

I start losing frames real quick when I have a lot of models on the screen. Scenarios I used to be able to play (When I had a working gpu installed) don't work now. They must have had a lesser gpu. 

BTW on the Radzymin thread someone was talking **** about being able to load the full 5.7x5.7km map. They said they had 24gb of ram and it was MAXED OUT!!! I never had more than 16. 

Thoughts? 

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You're asking the wrong guy my friend. That was 5 years ago. Nowadays I have lost any feel for video card and processor specs. 

I guess the big maps are sometimes a show of muscle for what your PC can do but I personally like the tiny battles.  Especially when I sit down to write a scenario and I know it is going to be tiny, I can see the finish line. When I play a scenario and it is tiny or small, I can focus and enjoy it, maybe not miss any cool bits of the action. Just my style.

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In CMBS an Abrams can cross Radzy pretty quickly, and can engage targets on the other side of the map haha. CMBS is what originally started my craze for BIG maps. That title needs SPACE.

Some ATGM's cant even fire until the target is 400m+ away. Nuts.

I think multiplayer should come into play around the battalion level, so you never miss a thing. ;)

Edited by Artkin
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  • 10 months later...

I Just Started a scenario on Operation Hubertus, November 11 -1942. It's going to be a medium-large size scenario concentrating on the Panzer Pioneer Battalion 50 and Sturmkompanie 44 attacking the Comissar's House and I./Pioneer Battalion 305 trying to take the Apothke and down to the Volga. It's going to have Help from a Stug Abt with Stug III early and a few s.I.G.150's. I'm going to use the early model Brumbar's, the armor for both of these vehicles were about the same except the s.I.G. was open topped and the Brumbar isn't. I took the Central Stalingrad Map somebody made awhile back and Zero'd almost everything out, and now I'm making the map from drawings and a lot of pictures of the buildings. I really want to do this the right way, I mean lots of trenches, bunkers, craters and rubble everywhere. Taking the junk piles and placing them where they should be will be time consuming but, I want to do this right. So far, I have the Commissar's House, the Opothke and the Park finished, with a little bit of luck I am hoping to have this project ready for testing in a few months, Cheers!!!

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  • 2 weeks later...

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